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Thread: Not a knot!

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    Not a knot!

    I was just having a browse through some older threads from earlier this year and it became apparent that some people were advocating the use of Strapwork's products. Nothing wrong with that, they may have a fantastic product (I can't comment 'cos I don't know), but the only reason I saw was that they will sew loops into the ends for you. Again, nothing wrong with that - great service, but my initial reaction was: Why not just tie the loops in yourself, same as you would with a piece of cord?

    Am I missing something? Is there something inherently wrong with tying knots in tape? I've been doing it in my suspension system for a couple of years now with no problems so far.

  2. #2
    Senior Member pure_mahem's Avatar
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    As with cord tieing any knot in a strap or cord or rope will weaken the load limit the said rope cord or stap can hold. It was also discussed in many threads around the same time testing had been done and having the loop sewn offered the greatest retained strength in the working load capability of the strap. Hope that answers why. However if it works for you and your happy so be it!

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    Senior Member rock_rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mahem View Post
    As with cord tieing any knot in a strap or cord or rope will weaken the load limit the said rope cord or stap can hold. It was also discussed in many threads around the same time testing had been done and having the loop sewn offered the greatest retained strength in the working load capability of the strap. Hope that answers why. However if it works for you and your happy so be it!
    Just my $.02. I agree that a sewn loop is superior in strength. I'm a fan of using sewn loops because they are less balky and the neatness factor subdues my OCD side. Now I admit I am no where near a math major (2+2=5, I think). That said, I did rock climbing for years and always tied loops in the webbing I was using for tie offs with no problems (Obviously since I'm writing this). I have to think properly tied loops are strong enough for our purposes. I realize however that there is a lot that affects the force on a suspension system and it's possible that a hammock creates a greater load than webbing takes in a fall. That is a question for those that are math majors.
    Murphy was an optimist! - O'toole's commentary on Murphy's law
    The perversity of the Universe tends towards a maximum. - O'Toole's Corollary
    I think this O'Toole guys onto something. - Rock_Rat's commentary on O'Toole

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    Senior Member GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    I've used both knots and loops. These days tend to loops because I'm more confident that the ones I sew will hold. A knot takes up more strap length to make a loop, something closer to a foot than a couple of inches.

    Using high test straps of the type usually talked about here a good knot won't weaken the strap to anywhere near a danger point. My favorite knot in all the world is the bowline. On cord the knot reduces the strength by around 50% (see this discussion on knots and rope strength if you're interested). A loop made with a bowline does not slip, and can be easily undone after being under tension.

    The knot strength link above cites experts who explain that the weakening of the cord comes from sharp bends, which force the fibers on the outside of the bend to carry the load. Makes me wonder then about the strength advantage of a sewn loop, because there's a sharp bend at the top of the loop under tension, bending around a segment of webbing just as would happen inside of a knot. Hmm.

    Grizz

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams View Post
    I've used both knots and loops. These days tend to loops because I'm more confident that the ones I sew will hold. A knot takes up more strap length to make a loop, something closer to a foot than a couple of inches.

    Using high test straps of the type usually talked about here a good knot won't weaken the strap to anywhere near a danger point. My favorite knot in all the world is the bowline. On cord the knot reduces the strength by around 50% (see this discussion on knots and rope strength if you're interested). A loop made with a bowline does not slip, and can be easily undone after being under tension.

    The knot strength link above cites experts who explain that the weakening of the cord comes from sharp bends, which force the fibers on the outside of the bend to carry the load. Makes me wonder then about the strength advantage of a sewn loop, because there's a sharp bend at the top of the loop under tension, bending around a segment of webbing just as would happen inside of a knot. Hmm.

    Grizz
    Grizz,

    Knots, ropes, and webbing are some of those subjects that the more the look into the more you learn, or to phrase it another way, the more you find out you didn't know what you thought you did. It has certainly been that way for me.

    There is the radius causing the outer fibers to take more of the load and weakening the rope or webbing because it can fail one fiber at a time rather than all or none, there can be a cutting action involved, there can be a friction component, etc. It can be a convoluted process and it can change dramatically when different materials are used... and not only the material but how the material is structured as well. Solid ropes versus hollow core versus braided and even with webbing I see some that have very different structure and likely have significant differences in how they might fail in specific applications.

    Different materials can also have a 'night and day' effect as to how well particular knots hold under load and how easily they release after the load has been removed. There are so many variables involved that you almost have to determine what works and what doesn't on a case by case basis.
    Last edited by Youngblood; 09-19-2008 at 08:43. Reason: spelling
    Youngblood AT2000

  6. #6
    Senior Member whitefoot_hp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozziepom View Post
    I was just having a browse through some older threads from earlier this year and it became apparent that some people were advocating the use of Strapwork's products. Nothing wrong with that, they may have a fantastic product (I can't comment 'cos I don't know), but the only reason I saw was that they will sew loops into the ends for you. Again, nothing wrong with that - great service, but my initial reaction was: Why not just tie the loops in yourself, same as you would with a piece of cord?

    Am I missing something? Is there something inherently wrong with tying knots in tape? I've been doing it in my suspension system for a couple of years now with no problems so far.
    tying knots in webbing is not as strong as a well sewn loop. it has something to do with physics...

  7. #7
    Senior Member GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    ...

    Knots, ropes, and webbing are some of those subjects that the more the look into the more you learn, or to phrase it another way, the more you find out you didn't know what you thought you did. It has certainly been that way for me.

    ...

    Different materials can also have a 'night and day' effect as to how well particular knots hold under load and how easily they release after the load has been removed. There are so many variables involved that you almost have to determine what works and what doesn't on a case by case basis.
    yep. And from a design point of view, avoid doing anything clearly dumb, and over-engineer on materials wherever there is any question about suitability.

    Grizz

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    RockRat - ...."subduing ocd"..... You realize that it should be cdo?
    It's the same thing, just in the correct order...

  9. #9
    New Member ritzhenson's Avatar
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    my favorite CDO saying..."Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!" peace y'all.
    Why didn't someone tell me sooner? I don't HAVE to sleep on the ground!

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    Let say that the hammock you got is like the DD hammock
    ( http://www.ddhammocks.com/gallery.php ). then without any fanciful gadgets how would you tie your hammock to a tree? i mean no gadgets such as tree hugger, caribiners etc etc...

    thanks

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