Suspension idea, please analyze

[Cosmo]

Hi everyone.

I'm not sure if this is a thing already or not, but I haven't seen anything like it. Thus I'm questioning it and any foreseeable issues.

I have a Thunderbird with 6' whoopies that I am currently using with a Dutch Biner to connect directly to my 1" tree straps via a MSH. So... the biner essentially becomes the toggle and the whoopie locks into the biner also (instead of over the toggle). This seems to work insofar as it holds me up. One small problem, though. The webbing is a bit difficult to work in and out of the biner. I can do it, but it takes a minute, especially after it has been loaded. Generally I leave the biners attached via the MSH to the straps for several hangs, but if I have to completely take the biner out it isn't without effort. I have to untie the knot and fold/unfold the webbing and twist it out of the tiny biner.

My thought is to modify this, slightly. (I like the idea of the biners for some strange reason, but this could also involve the Dutch Whoopie Hook just as easily.) I want to use the biner to connect Amsteel to Amsteel, as they are technically intended for. So I would add a continuous loop of Amsteel to this equation, to function as the "toggle" that would slip into that same MSH. Here I could either larks head it onto the MSH, or I could pass it through and fold it over, "doubling" it up, before locking it into the biner, and in turn onto the whoopie. (On this point, would one method be better than the other?)

I hope that makes sense. I've tried it, and the MSH seems to collapse onto the Amsteel toggle and tighten down, forming a little ">" (arrow) shape, which seems to hold quite solidly. Since the Amsteel is slick, to undo it, I go behind the tightened "arrow" of the webbing, and pull the continuous loop out pretty easily. Any excess tree webbing can be half hitched as a safety over the MSH.

I can't tell whether or not there could be any issues with this setup, but superficially it seems to work. Can anyone see any major issues with this? Is it absurd, contrived, silly?

Thank you!

[dingbat]

Personally I don't like it. Seems to me the MSH relies on the straight toggle to hold the geometry of the knot. Mocking it up with 1 3/4" webbing over a 25kn steel oval, I'm seeing a tendancy for the wrap over the standing part of the webbing to pull down over the shoulders of the biner. If this were to happen, it looks like the knot will start to lose a good portion of it's webbing to webbing contact, leaving it more likely to slip and possibly fail. The oval I'm using is approx 2 1/8" outside to outside on it's minor axis so the webbing did eventually cinch up around itself before slipping over the shoulders. Not sure the Dutch biner has the width to rely on this.

.... of course, I could be wrong.

or maybe there is a market for Dutchware to make a toggle-biner? Hmmm....

Good luck,
-Mark

Eta: Yeah, and reading on....I would think the situation could get worse with a soft piece of cord replacing the toggle, leaving essentially, no shoulder.

[kerryandjane]

I have a Thunderbird with 6' whoopies that I am currently using with a Dutch Biner to connect directly to my 1" tree straps via a MSH. So... the biner essentially becomes the toggle and the whoopie locks into the biner also (instead of over the toggle). This seems to work insofar as it holds me up. One small problem, though. The webbing is a bit difficult to work in and out of the biner. I can do it, but it takes a minute, especially after it has been loaded. Generally I leave the biners attached via the MSH to the straps for several hangs, but if I have to completely take the biner out it isn't without effort. I have to untie the knot and fold/unfold the webbing and twist it out of the tiny biner.

My thought is to modify this, slightly. (I like the idea of the biners for some strange reason, but this could also involve the Dutch Whoopie Hook just as easily.) I want to use the biner to connect Amsteel to Amsteel, as they are technically intended for. So I would add a continuous loop of Amsteel to this equation, to function as the "toggle" that would slip into that same MSH. Here I could either larks head it onto the MSH, or I could pass it through and fold it over, "doubling" it up, before locking it into the biner, and in turn onto the whoopie. (On this point, would one method be better than the other?)

It's been done. I've done it myself - pulling the slippery loop seemed to tighten my hitch/knot more than the traditional use of the MSH.... just my guess.
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...in-spike-hitch
Someone even made a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VczGvhmwDGI
The MSH is only as useful as it's undo-ability if your caribiner can slide out as easy as a standard toggle.... do it, otherwise my advice is to use a stick/arrow shaft instead of a biner and use the tried, tested and trusted use of the MSH for hammock hanging.

Along with that advice.... do you need to use the biner to join whoopie and strap? You could bypass the biner and go direct to the knot of the MSH.

Your 2nd idea (modification) would work the same but possibly a little more finicky to undo/adjust/tie.... Can't hurt to try or can it? HYOH.

[Phantom Grappler]

Good ideas
Also see my new suspension on YouTube
Phantom Grappler Suspension
I really enjoyed Yates Hang
You gotta go to a group hang
HYOH

[-FiveFiveSix-]

Wow another member from Rochester NY.... If you end up near the high falls area anytime in the next two weeks, and hear a jackhammer its me hating life... Anyhoo back to your question, I would think the continuous loop used as a "toggle" in the MSH would be an interesting idea. One concern I would have would be undoing the situation. Once you put a load on it, with out something rigid, like a biner or toggle I would thing the webbing and amsteel would bind up pretty good. Also are you planing on using biners for your tree straps too? If you are then your load out now needs 4 biners..

[Cosmo]

Wow another member from Rochester NY.... If you end up near the high falls area anytime in the next two weeks, and hear a jackhammer its me hating life... Anyhoo back to your question, I would think the continuous loop used as a "toggle" in the MSH would be an interesting idea. One concern I would have would be undoing the situation. Once you put a load on it, with out something rigid, like a biner or toggle I would thing the webbing and amsteel would bind up pretty good. Also are you planing on using biners for your tree straps too? If you are then your load out now needs 4 biners..

Cool, thanks for the reply. By the way, some Rochester area folks have been talking about a group hang sometime this spring or summer.

Anyway, I only briefly tested this, and not overnight... but since Amsteel and the webbing are both slick, they separated pretty easily actually. I was worried about that too though, and will be doing a full test soon.

I use Dutch Clips so only the one set of biners. I also just made some soft shackles, which I might consider working into the equation instead of the biners.

Hm... I love how infinitely modular suspension engineering can be.

[-FiveFiveSix-]

Cool, thanks for the reply. By the way, some Rochester area folks have been talking about a group hang sometime this spring or summer.

Anyway, I only briefly tested this, and not overnight... but since Amsteel and the webbing are both slick, they separated pretty easily actually. I was worried about that too though, and will be doing a full test soon.

I use Dutch Clips so only the one set of biners. I also just made some soft shackles, which I might consider working into the equation instead of the biners.

Hm... I love how infinitely modular suspension engineering can be.

Im down with the group hang any info and when and were?

[Cosmo]

Im down with the group hang any info and when and were?

I don't believe there has been anything planned out yet, but we can post in the local hangouts forum and solidify something soon. There's actually a thread there about the Finger Lakes National Forest in late April. 1.5 hour drive from here.

[Cosmo]

So I ended up trying something a bit different. Instead of adding a continuous loop to accommodate the Dutch Biner a little better than the webbing was (and use as the "toggle" in the MSH), I swapped out the biner entirely, and instead, inserted some soft-shackles I made out of 7/64 Amsteel.

The soft shackle is the toggle for the MSH, and it in turn connects to my whoopie sling on the hammock. I took a photo to better show what I was going for. The excess webbing is half hitched behind the MSH for added security.

I tested this out during our latest winter blast, with 30mph winds and heavy slushy snow and sleet. I survived without incident. After loading the MSH, the Amsteel slips out from behind the knot like a hot knife through butter.

20140329-_KRS0814.jpg

As much as I like incorporating my Dutchware, I kind of like using my soft shackles too! Now hopefully they don't fail, as they were my first attempt.

[MacDaddy]

I could be imagining this wrong, but isn't this just effectively turning the marlin spike hitch into a slippery half hitch? Even with the half-hitch stopper I don't know that that's something I'd really want to hang from. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were going to go down that sort of route I'd think an overhand on a bight would be a better knot to use there.

Still, it seems like the marlin spike hitch with a toggle does a better job of putting your weight directly into the part of the webbing being kept flat, rather than stressing a sharp radius.