Hammock comparison questions

[CoyoteWanderer]

Hi All,

So, I posted in the new hangers stickied thread if anyone wants to know about me.

important info - me 5'8" / 200+lbs - camping conditions - backpacking, mountains, low temp nights, often at or near freezing, down bag, frequent rain. oh, and more rain. (BC Coastal areas). Also winter camping down to, well, flippin' cold. Haven't had the -25 to -40 trips yet but expect to be doing a couple in the next year (likely manning park next winter). The extreme cold weather trips are less relevant because I have other gear that needs upgrading to deal with that as well, and it won't be a light weight camp.

My questions:

My comparisons and reading have been largely focussed on the Hennessey Expedition and the Clark NA...

1. How significant is the shoulder squeeze in the clark hammocks? I really like the clark design, look and ideas. I find that if I lay along the axis of my peak (parachute?) hammock, I get significant shoulder squeeze. I still sleep well, but I find it less comfortable. I laid down in a Hennessey briefly a couple of weeks ago. It was comfortable, but I didn't think it was a whole lot more comfortable than my peak, but that is also a wide hammock.

2. How do hammocks generally do for condensation - specifically, Hennessey with the overshield and the clark with the nylon covers closed.

3. I have read good things about the Hennessey in the rain, and this is a primary concern. The clark has also had good things said about it's weather resistance, so I gather they are comparable. Is this the correct conclusion or is one better than the other?

4. Cold weather warmth - do the clark pockets work? does the undercover on the hennessey with the unconvincing foam insert work. Do either work better than the other? Do both need additional elements to make them as warm as a tent on the ground. The clark looks more convincing to me simply because you can close those nylon panels over the bug mesh and it is more or less a tent.

5. How do the clarks zippers hold up. The hennessey is simpler and Sgt Rock's comparison is, imo, correct when he says simpler is better.

6. WBBB - ok since doing some of my homework - this is a popular item
- questions
1. you need a separate tarp system, one isn't included or set up for this hammock, correct? The fold over wing fly I see in the pictures doesn't really look like it would be great in inclement (or merely constant) weather.
2. You would need to create an undercover - like shell for the bottom to create the airpocket, yes?
3. Is Brandon (his name is Brandon, right?) still making them? Or is he stalled from patent and time issues?
4. does it have an overcover like the hennessey to cover the bug mesh or would that be a custom job as well?

Thank you for your time to answer a newbie's questions.

Cheers,
CoyoteWanderer

[angrysparrow]

Hi All

Welcome to the forum, CW.

All of your questions are covered on this forum in various threads. I'll take a few of them here, though.

1. How significant is the shoulder squeeze in the clark hammocks? I really like the clark design, look and ideas. I find that if I lay along the axis of my peak (parachute?) hammock, I get significant shoulder squeeze.

It depends on the person, and on which Clark. The NX series is larger than the other models, and fits bigger guys much better.

Laying down the long axis is actually rarer among the members here than laying on a diagonal (in gathered end hammocks, anyway). Provided that the hammock is hung with sufficient sag, a diagonal position allows the occupant to get a flatter lay.

How do hammocks generally do for condensation - specifically, Hennessey with the overshield and the clark with the nylon covers closed.

They do very well, provided that you (1) use breathable insulation or (2) vent the moisture in some way.

I have read good things about the Hennessey in the rain, and this is a primary concern. The clark has also had good things said about it's weather resistance, so I gather they are comparable. Is this the correct conclusion or is one better than the other?

Provided that the tarp used with either one is properly pitched, they both do fine in the rain. However, most of the members here prefer larger non-stock tarps for more coverage. Some like using them for privacy, some for lounging room, some for weather concerns, etc. The good news is that there are many many nice tarp options, and quite a few that are designed specifically with hammocks in mind.

Cold weather warmth - do the clark pockets work? does the undercover on the hennessey with the unconvincing foam insert work. Do either work better than the other? Do both need additional elements to make them as warm as a tent on the ground. The clark looks more convincing to me simply because you can close those nylon panels over the bug mesh and it is more or less a tent.

That's a lot of compicated questions in a short space...
- You don't want to rely solely on the Clark pockets for insulation.
- The HH foam does work and has some fans on this forum. There are a multitude of other insulation options, though.
- Hammocks in general aren't as warm as a tent, until you learn the basics of insulation. But once you do, you won't go back.
- Enclosing a hammock (in any manner, Clark or otherwise) does create warmth. That can be done with almost any hammock.

How do the clarks zippers hold up. The hennessey is simpler and Sgt Rock's comparison is, imo, correct when he says simpler is better.

I recall no complaints being posted about the Clark zippers.

WBBB - ok since doing some of my homework - this is a popular item
- questions

Given that the members of this site study hammocks at length, that ought to tell you something.

you need a separate tarp system, one isn't included or set up for this hammock, correct? The fold over wing fly I see in the pictures doesn't really look like it would be great in inclement (or merely constant) weather.

It doesn't come with a tarp, and the 'fold over wing' is a bugnet and shelf, not a tarp. But Brandon does make and sell them. Also, like I said above, there are a host of other options. I'm a particular fan of OES tarps.

You would need to create an undercover - like shell for the bottom to create the airpocket, yes?

Air pockets below you are essentially useless for insulation. You need either lofted insulation (like an underquilt) or some form of pad. Both methods have their fans, and each has it's pros and cons. Plenty of info on both here.

Is Brandon (his name is Brandon, right?) still making them? Or is he stalled from patent and time issues?

His name is Brandon, he's a member of this forum, he does make hammocks actively, and his typical wait time is about 3 weeks for BlackBirds.

does it have an overcover like the hennessey to cover the bug mesh or would that be a custom job as well?

Brandon does make an overcover. I don't think the design is 'finalized', but he's usually willing to work with customers to get them what they want. One of the beauties of small cottage manufacturing.

Cheers

Same to you! Again welcome...happy hanging.

[CoyoteWanderer]

All of your questions are covered on this forum in various threads. I'll take a few of them here, though.

Hi AS, thanks for your reply.

Yes, the answers are here. I have spent about 10-12 hours reading, and while I have learned a great deal and there are a lot of interesting posts, find that an interactive conversation might assist me in getting a better grasp of the answers.

Laying down the long axis is actually rarer among the members here than laying on a diagonal (in gathered end hammocks, anyway). Provided that the hammock is hung with sufficient sag, a diagonal position allows the occupant to get a flatter lay.

Yes, I did realize that, I was trying to provide a comparison point with something that I was familiar with so that I had some ability to guess at the reality since I hadn't had a chance to actually see a Clark "in the wild".

I guess my question would have been better asked as "how much difference does the asymmetric shape make for the lay. My peak is not asymmetric and the hennessey expedition a-sym I was briefly able to try last week is. I didn't notice a huge difference in comfort level between the two, but the hennessey might have been a little nicer, it was hard to tell.

They do very well, provided that you (1) use breathable insulation or (2) vent the moisture in some way.

So, the round hole in the overcover of the hennessey and the mesh venting on the Clark are comparable? Do you need to do anything additional to either set up?

What did you mean by "breathable insulation"? Most moisture in a tenting situation is carried from your breath, so I would assume that the condensation considerations in the hammock are the same and the moist air is being released into the hammock space where it could be vented by the methods above - how would you describe the insulation as fitting into the moisture reduction?

Thanks for the answer on tarps and rain. That sounds like my conclusions were pretty close.

That's a lot of compicated questions in a short space...

Excellent. That usually indicates that I don't clearly understand the situation.

- You don't want to rely solely on the Clark pockets for insulation.
- The HH foam does work and has some fans on this forum. There are a multitude of other insulation options, though.

So, what would you combine with the Clark pockets, or what temperature would the Clark pockets be good down to?

I have seen mentioned completely ignoring the pockets and going straight to an underquilt. Is that a function of them only being useful to a certain temperature/amount of insulation or the features are more gimmicky than useful?

- Hammocks in general aren't as warm as a tent, until you learn the basics of insulation. But once you do, you won't go back.
- Enclosing a hammock (in any manner, Clark or otherwise) does create warmth. That can be done with almost any hammock.

Sure, most hammocks can be enclosed and that will add warmth, but the clark has it built in and the hennessey shows it as an option. The remainder of them either require DIY work or another purchase from an aftermarket vendor or other DIYer. I don't mind DIY, but I need to see a value in putting in that time that is greater than the value of purchasing one with the option already there. Simply a personal decision. I would rather use gear than make it, most of the time.

Given that the members of this site study hammocks at length, that ought to tell you something.

Yes, and it is a respect for that knowledge that made me add it to my questions.

OES tarps.

Thanks for the link. Those look fantastic.

Air pockets below you are essentially useless for insulation. You need either lofted insulation (like an underquilt) or some form of pad. Both methods have their fans, and each has it's pros and cons. Plenty of info on both here.

I really like the looks of the underquilt. Can anybody provide some sort of comparison for warmth between an underquilt and a pad? How about both?
What about a comparison of Hennessey's undercover and foam pad vs an underquilt?

His name is Brandon, he's a member of this forum, he does make hammocks actively, and his typical wait time is about 3 weeks for BlackBirds.

The name thing was a nod to Shug's video on the Warbonnet web page. Thanks for the info on wait times.

Brandon does make an overcover. I don't think the design is 'finalized', but he's usually willing to work with customers to get them what they want. One of the beauties of small cottage manufacturing.

That's very cool to know.

Thank you very much for your reply.

CoyoteWanderer.

[angrysparrow]

Hi AS, thanks for your reply.

You bet. That's what the forum is for.

Yes, the answers are here. I have spent about 10-12 hours reading, and while I have learned a great deal and there are a lot of interesting posts, find that an interactive conversation might assist me in getting a better grasp of the answers.

I'm sure that's true. It's hard to tell how much reading/research that a new member has done before asking questions, though. Thanks for reading and educating yourself before posting!

Yes, I did realize that, I was trying to provide a comparison point with something that I was familiar with so that I had some ability to guess at the reality since I hadn't had a chance to actually see a Clark "in the wild".

I guess my question would have been better asked as "how much difference does the asymmetric shape make for the lay. My peak is not asymmetric and the hennessey expedition a-sym I was briefly able to try last week is. I didn't notice a huge difference in comfort level between the two, but the hennessey might have been a little nicer, it was hard to tell.

I understand what you were asking better, now. I'm still not sure I can give a good answer, though, because 'how much difference' seems to be quite a subjective observation. Different people find differing positions comfortable. I will say that I do notice that asymmetric hammocks (like the HH) are more comfortable when used as such. But, also, I can be incredibly comfortable in a typical symmetrical hammock. I think that this one can only be answered for any given person by 'giving it a try'.

So, the round hole in the overcover of the hennessey and the mesh venting on the Clark are comparable? Do you need to do anything additional to either set up?

You are correct about their comparable venting, and nothing special is needed for either of those.

What did you mean by "breathable insulation"? Most moisture in a tenting situation is carried from your breath, so I would assume that the condensation considerations in the hammock are the same and the moist air is being released into the hammock space where it could be vented by the methods above - how would you describe the insulation as fitting into the moisture reduction?

By breathable insulation, I meant insulation that doesn't act as a vapor barrier, and thus allows moisture to pass through.

The 'most moisture is carried from your breath' part is the key. Most but not all. I do understand now that you were thinking only of breath as a vector for condensation, but I wasn't in my reply.

I probably should not have complicated my answer with uncertainty, but there has been significant discussion on this forum about using vapor barriers as a part of the insulation scheme. And since you seem willing to read and learn, here is a good thread to look at in relation to it.

So, what would you combine with the Clark pockets, or what temperature would the Clark pockets be good down to?

I have seen mentioned completely ignoring the pockets and going straight to an underquilt. Is that a function of them only being useful to a certain temperature/amount of insulation or the features are more gimmicky than useful?

I would combine a pad with the Clark pockets, or just use a quilt instead. The pockets would be fine for supplementing a pad, or for using alone stuffed with things only in summertime temps. The problem is that there is a gap between the pockets along the center of the hammock, and that creates an uncomfortable cold spot.

One of the members here went to the trouble to have individual down pillows made to fit into each pocket, but was only semi-successful because of the gap.

I would rather use gear than make it, most of the time.

That's absolutely fair. You are correct in that there are only a few manufacturers that have overcovers as commercially available items.

Yes, and it is a respect for that knowledge that made me add it to my questions.

I didn't mean for that to sound patronizing, if it did. Again, it's hard to tell the knowledge level of an incoming new member about the many varied hammocks and accessories.

I really like the looks of the underquilt. Can anybody provide some sort of comparison for warmth between an underquilt and a pad? How about both?
What about a comparison of Hennessey's undercover and foam pad vs an underquilt?

There are so many underquilt options now, in so many thicknesses and styles, that it's hard to answer your question about quilts, and that's before we even get to all the pad options.

I suggest you take a close look at the quilt comparison chart at JRB. Then look at Speer's site, then at KickAssQuilts, and then have a look at the WB Yeti. Next, here is a good discussion of the HH SS.

Hammockers have slowly become blessed by an absolute wealth of insulation options, and we're so happy about that!

The name thing was a nod to Shug's video on the Warbonnet web page.

Yeah, totally missed that. It's been a while since I watched that video. Have you seen the rest of Shug's videos from the Video Directory? Good stuff...

[Ramblinrev]

I have the HH Super Shelter whihc I like very much. I have stopped using my underquilts in favor of the super shelter. To be fair, all my underquilts were DIY and none were down but I persoanlly see no reason to expand beyond the super shelter at this point. That said, if money were not an object and I had unlimited hanging resources I would experiment with some of te nice down underquilts available. If I _never_ use a pad inside the hammock again it will be too soon. But for serious cold weather (single digits and below) I would probably have a closed cell foam pad handy just in case.

[Cannibal]

Good golly! I've never seen a thread so organized and 'stuff'; made my head hurt.
Pads suck, quilts rock. Welcome to the forum!

[Peter_pan]

Good golly! I've never seen a thread so organized and 'stuff'; made my head hurt.
Pads suck, quilts rock. Welcome to the forum!

This point is especially true for those who are back sweaters.... TEST....If you sit on a naugahyde chairs for an hour at a school/church recital, when the break comes and you are looking for a wall to stand against while you pull the shirt off your back and your drawers out of your ***....Then you are a back sweater for sure and will do well to consider the breathability of under quilts.

Pan

[Ramblinrev]

This point is especially true for those who are back sweaters.... TEST....If you sit on a naugahyde chairs for an hour at a school/church recital, when the break comes and you are looking for a wall to stand against while you pull the shirt off your back and your drawers out of your ***....Then you are a back sweater for sure and will do well to consider the breathability of under quilts.

Pan

Now _THAT_ is a practical test that even I can relate to. Thanks Pan

[fin]

Good golly! I've never seen a thread so organized and 'stuff'; made my head hurt.

Must be an engineer, or a math guy.

Pads suck, quilts rock. Welcome to the forum!

More truer words could not be spoken.

I *had* a Hennessey, own a Clark and own 2 BB's, among others. While Hennessey has their converts, I am not one. Love the BB, love the Clark, love my BMB.

The Clark weathershield is very effective. Shoulder squeeze in a Clark? It is a narrower hammock, but I am about the same size as you and I have no issues with the NA, size-wise. The pockets are good for organizing, but as far as effective insulation, say 60*......, ehh. Better to add a UQ. I use a UQ on every hammock now, many different kinds of UQ's. I throw an uninsulated air pad in my BMB and STILL use a UQ at the same time, but that is the only hammock I have that the pad does not shift on, which is one of the reasons I left the ground - so I didn't have to try to stay on a pad all night. Pads make me sweat, but every one is different. Zippers on a Clark, if you ever have a problem I would be amazed. Besides, there are zippers on both sides, so if one side would ever jam (unlikely,) you could still get out the other side. The two best features on the Clark are the zippers (both sides and smooth as butter) and the built-in weathershield. I have never had condensation with the weathershield, but I've only been down to the teens with my Clark, and I always leave it cracked open on top for venting.

BB is a comfortable, roomy hammock, and allows flatter back sleeping than the Clark. I always end up on my side in the Clark - it is the weirdest thing. It is the only hammock I have that I end up on my side, every time I sleep in it. I think someone else, maybe Cannibal, had that issue as well. Anyway, the shelf is a great storage place, and there is no roomier single person hammock available that I am aware of. Making a topcover is easy for the BB. Brandon will make one, and I posted directions for my version.

Tarps - I like OES tarps as well. Brandon also makes a tarp, but I haven't had the opportunity to test one out. The Speer Winter tarp (misnamed - sb the All Weather Tarp) is a great option as well, and it is currently on sale. A company in Minnesota make a great tarp, but I am the only one I know who has one.

Welcome to the forums!

[Cannibal]

This point is especially true for those who are back sweaters.... TEST....If you sit on a naugahyde chairs for an hour at a school/church recital, when the break comes and you are looking for a wall to stand against while you pull the shirt off your back and your drawers out of your ***....Then you are a back sweater for sure and will do well to consider the breathability of under quilts.

Pan

You had me snorting on that one Pan!

I always end up on my side in the Clark - it is the weirdest thing. It is the only hammock I have that I end up on my side, every time I sleep in it. I think someone else, maybe Cannibal, had that issue as well.

Yep! That would be me. It's the weirdest thing. I sleep on my back in every other hammock I have. I do occasionally awake on my side in my other hammocks, but it's the exception not the rule. With a Clark, it is a guarantee I'll be waking on my side. Very strange.