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  1. #1
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    Help me with insulation combos, UQ/pads,etc

    I just got some new options, so I'm not clear on what will be best for each temp. Rather than focusing on exact temps, I'm interested to know what will be the best order to add things. I sleep fine on pads, especially the oware. Mostly I am looking to keep the weight down. I have a HH.

    Choices I own:
    JRB RMS, 26 oz, 3.5" loft, good to 20 degrees?
    JRB Stealth, 15.5 oz good to 40 degrees? 1.5" loft
    JRB weathershield (v2): 7oz, good for (added) 5-10 degrees?
    Oware pad: 6 oz 3/16"
    Oware pad: 6 oz (have two, and can double up one for torso length)
    Insulmat pad: 9 oz .39" (stiff - only for coldest weather)

    Here's my first take on it, but it seems a little off to me:
    temp/over / under
    75+ /- / WS (bugs)
    70 /WS / -
    65 /Stealth / WS
    60 /Stealth / ws
    55 /Stealth / ws, 1o
    50 /Stealth / ws 1o
    45 /Stealth / ws, 2o
    40 /rms / ws, s
    35 /rms / ws, s
    30 /rms / ws, s, 1o
    25 /rms / ws, s, 2o
    20 /rms / ws, s, 2o
    15 /rms / ws, s, 2o, ins
    10 /rms, clothes/ ws, s, 2o, ins
    5 /rms, clothes/ ws, s, 2o, ins
    0 /too **** cold

    key: ws=weathershield, 1o=one oware, 2o=both oware, s=stealth, ins=insulmat

    I will probably carry an oware pad regardless, so it would be good to use it in my system. I haven't actually used an UQ, so one question I have is how to balance top vs. bottom insulation.

    Though I'm not intending to start the cold/warm sleeper argument, I will say that I was "ok" at 3F with RMS and clothes on top and all 3 pads under. I would have been "comfortable" at 15, especially if I had the WS then. I have the WS listed in all cases, but this might be something to play with.

    Any thoughts are welcome.
    Last edited by jaiden; 03-19-2008 at 14:43. Reason: fixing table

  2. #2
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    Wow, I'm kinda shocked no one has had anything to say. Perhaps a more basic question:

    How does 1" of pad compare to 1" of down? by my conversions, they should be equal, but I suspect this isn't the case

    If you had a 1.5" loft quilt and a 3.5" loft quilt, which would you put underneath?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mule's Avatar
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    It looks like you need us to ask you questions. Looks well thought out already and you are going to be flexible enough for anything. mule
    The present moment is eternal. I would rather be Here, Now.

  4. #4
    Senior Member angrysparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaiden View Post
    How does 1" of pad compare to 1" of down? by my conversions, they should be equal, but I suspect this isn't the case
    1" of pad, underneath, will take you to a FAR lower temp than 1" of down.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaiden View Post
    If you had a 1.5" loft quilt and a 3.5" loft quilt, which would you put underneath?
    I would use the 3.5" loft quilt in the bottom-most position.

    Also, I agree with Mule, I think you've got a good grasp on how the layering should go already.
    I think that when the lies are all told and forgot the truth will be there yet. It dont move about from place to place and it dont change from time to time. You cant corrupt it any more than you can salt salt. - Cormac McCarthy

  5. #5
    Senior Member GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaiden View Post
    Wow, I'm kinda shocked no one has had anything to say. Perhaps a more basic question:

    How does 1" of pad compare to 1" of down? by my conversions, they should be equal, but I suspect this isn't the case
    I don't know the formula, but no, 1" of pad has different properties than 1" of down. Take your Stealth. loft on that is about 2 inches, reportedly good to 40 degrees or so. An inch of pad underneath is more than most anyone here has reported, except possible single digits or below 0 F.

    If you had a 1.5" loft quilt and a 3.5" loft quilt, which would you put underneath?
    The fatter one goes below. You have more options for temperature control upstairs.

    my $0.05 worth, for what it's worth.

    Grizz

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the feedback

    My problem with using the RMS underneath is that it leaves me with only the stealth on top. According to the JRB site, the stealth is only good to 40F, so despite having a 15F quilt under me, I am still only good to 40F. Also, the oware pads are light and I'll probably always carry one (for a sit pad or go-to-ground scenario) so I'm taking that weight hit anyway.

    Maybe I'm wrong and a RMS underneath with a stealth on top would be warm below 40? I can add the WS and pad, but then I'm looking at like a 0 degree setup underneath and 40 degree on top, which seems strange. Again, I haven't played with the options enough... the stealth isn't even here yet...

  7. #7
    Senior Member angrysparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaiden View Post
    My problem with using the RMS underneath is that it leaves me with only the stealth on top.
    For hammock use, bottom insulation is more important. Once the bottom insulation is sufficient, you need less on top.

    That being said, according to the chart you outlined above, you plan to use the RMS on top in cold weather while sticking to pads beneath. That is a valid plan.

    My first comments, and I believe Grizz's comments as well, were just general advice about using more than one quilt. Typically, the quilt with the most loft is used on the bottom. If you make up for that with pads, though, the scenario changes.

    YMMV
    I think that when the lies are all told and forgot the truth will be there yet. It dont move about from place to place and it dont change from time to time. You cant corrupt it any more than you can salt salt. - Cormac McCarthy

  8. #8
    Senior Member GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    ditto on AngrySparrow's comments.

    Dual use insulated clothing is an important part of my system. I'm quite averse to being cold sleeping, but have found that I can get by on top with quilts or bags at temps 15-20 below their nominal rating, provided I'm bundled up.

    Grizz

  9. #9
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    My generalization based on my own experiences is that I expect about 20F worth of insulation per 3/8" of ccf pads or 1" of breathable down insulation when I use them separately for sleeping.

    There are several factors that I am aware of (there's probably others I'm not) that put little kinks and twist in that generalization. The amount of compression, the breathability, the fit, etc, and all factor in to this, as well as your individual metabolism and your personal tolerance to heat and cold.

    Most of those are generally understood, except for the breathability. For purpose of discussion, suppose my 3/8" of ccf pad and 1" of breathable down insulation generalization is correct. What would you get when you used a 3/8" ccf pad together with 1" of breathable down... 40F worth of insulation? I don't think it works that way, I think you get more than 40F. The reason for that is the ccf pad is a vapor barrier. A vapor barrier changes something very basic in that they cause you to quit producing insensible perspiration. Because of that, I think you will get more than 20F worth of insulation per 1" of breathable down insulation.

    And if you are going to have an imbalance of insulation on top and bottom, I think everyone will agree that it is best to have more underneath you. One of the worst case scenarios is to be cold on the bottom side with excessive insulation on the top side. You tend to overheat and sweat with your top side insulation because you are cold underneath. That is pretty miserable. If you have too much insulation underneath you can usually balance it out with top side insulation much easier, we do that that all the time in beds where mattresses provide a lot of insulation.
    Youngblood AT2000

  10. #10
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    With the gear you cite in post 1. the best balance would be the RMS below and the Stealth and WS on top.... With minor clothing adjustment you should then have a system for the 20-30s.... Given a sheltered site, adequate tarp, well fed, well hydrated etc, standard caviats for the variable personal issues.

    Pan
    Ounces to Grams.

    www.jacksrbetter.com ... Largest supplier of camping quilts and under quilts...Home of the Original Nest Under Quilt, and Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock. 800 595 0413

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