amsteel slips through rings in garda hitch

**skyclad** · 11-18-2010, 22:17

All clear on the vagaries of amsteel + steel rings. So many options, I'm looking for ease and reliability. Anybody seen that hamaca taino site? (http://www.hamacastaino.com/) He's got a gathered end hammock with 3/4" strap loop through the end, carabiner, clove hitch to tree strap. And the hammock end is in shrink wrap!

**Rat** · 11-18-2010, 22:56

I built loops into my first DIY hammocks, in fact I still may have one; they worked great. I didn't shrink wrap them though.

**skyclad** · 11-19-2010, 07:29

Mr. Grizz I got the idea of the garda hitch from your how-to video. They are great - thank you. What material are you using for you garda hitches? Will it also be ok over the long run to use the Hennessy type poly rope material with a garda hitch, or should I abandon that idea completely in favor of something more reliable?

sky

**GrizzlyAdams** · 11-19-2010, 08:17

Originally Posted by skyclad

Mr. Grizz I got the idea of the garda hitch from your how-to video. They are great - thank you. What material are you using for you garda hitches? Will it also be ok over the long run to use the Hennessy type poly rope material with a garda hitch, or should I abandon that idea completely in favor of something more reliable?

sky

I don't have long term experience using the garda on Henessey ropes, and even there not all ropes are the same. But the ones I've seen are considerably thicker than 7/64" Amsteel, and have a solid core that will resist the pressure of the squeeze.

2.8mm Spyderline (another solid core rope) has broken inside a garda hitch---the squeeze broke the core. Others report that the fatter 3.8mm Spyderline has been OK.

So my guess---and it is only a guess, not an endorsement or an assurance---is that the Hennessy cord is OK.

I don't use the garda hitch on hammock suspension anymore myself. It is a very cool idea, that's why I put it in that video, but the problems with it came out later. I do sometimes use it to attach cord to a tarp or tarp line (where the rings are plastic D-rings). My butt and back are not depending on it there!

**Rat** · 11-19-2010, 08:27

I know I am always the voice of dissension on these things, but...I think you are fine using the Amsteel with the Garda Hitch (Alpine Clutch). It is, after all, designed to be used with rope/cordage and I don't think you could ever apply enough force to 'crush' the fibers on Amsteel to the point of failure with a double ring set-up.

I know, we all love our Amsteel and try to do what is the 'best' and get everything perfect; but in reality we are not using this stuff anywhere near the point of failure or safe working limits to begin with. Like the discussion about an eye splice, Brummel or locked Brummel; which one should we use based on the final rating of the splice. Truth is, any of them will work for what we are doing with this rope as we are not approaching the SWL anyway, even de-rated. I routinely use knots in my Amsteel (Gasp!) while hanging for various reasons and have NEVER had a problem. I don't see an Alpine Clutch de-rating the rope any more than a slipped bunt line or clove hitch.

So I say use your Garda Hitch proudly. If you are concerned about it keep an eye on it until you see something that indicates a failure or not.

Okay, flame on!

**Knotty** · 11-19-2010, 11:12

Rat - I'm going to respectfully disagree. No flaming.

Amsteel is very strong in tension but doesn't like compression. What we know from other types of rope, like nylon, doesn't necessarily apply to high modulus rope. Here's an excerpt from an article by Brion Toss.

Let's start with the challenges. In the years since that first talk, hundreds of destruction tests, and quite a few in-the-field failures, have confirmed a central truth: HM doesn't like knots. Although fantastically strong in tension, HM fibers are quite weak in compression. Since knots invariably compress the rope under load, it is clear why knots typically weaken HM rope by at least 70%. And it gets worse: HM rope also tends to be quite slick, so slick that long-trusted knots like the Bowline will crawl right out under loads as low as 10% of ultimate strength. We've even seen cases where the (non-structural) cover of an HM rope broke at low loads, allowing the core to slide right out, leaving the still-knotted cover behind like an empty snakeskin.

**Rat** · 11-19-2010, 12:34

Originally Posted by Knotty

Rat - I'm going to respectfully disagree. No flaming.

Amsteel is very strong in tension but doesn't like compression. What we know from other types of rope, like nylon, doesn't necessarily apply to high modulus rope. Here's an excerpt from an article by Brion Toss.

Let's start with the challenges. In the years since that first talk, hundreds of destruction tests, and quite a few in-the-field failures, have confirmed a central truth: HM doesn't like knots. Although fantastically strong in tension, HM fibers are quite weak in compression. Since knots invariably compress the rope under load, it is clear why knots typically weaken HM rope by at least 70%. And it gets worse: HM rope also tends to be quite slick, so slick that long-trusted knots like the Bowline will crawl right out under loads as low as 10% of ultimate strength. We've even seen cases where the (non-structural) cover of an HM rope broke at low loads, allowing the core to slide right out, leaving the still-knotted cover behind like an empty snakeskin.

I agree completely with what Toss writes here, but we are talking about the Garda Hitch, not knots. the garda hitch works more like two rounds and hitch than a knot; the 'pinch point' is just a stopper to keep the creep from happening so the rounds can hold. My point is that the rounds take most of the load, not the 'stopper'. Additionally, Amsteel is not a cored rope, it is a hollow braid. But getting back to my original point; we aren't using this rope at anywhere near the SWL and I have used knots in it successfully many times for hammock applications. In fact, my Hennessey is secured with an Amsteel modified suspension the exact same way Tom ties it, bowline and all.

I find that people also don't realize the full potential of many of the tools we use everyday; the biggest example being a good knife. But that's another thread!

**GrizzlyAdams** · 11-19-2010, 12:47

Rat--just wondering if you've laid your own eyes on what the garda hitch does to Amsteel if left in the same place for a while. I have, and that's when I figured that as cool as the garda hitch is, there are other cool ways to suspend that don't have the cord look the way it does, flattened and pinched to just a few fibers of depth. I'm not knowledgeable enough about cord to say that it either harms the holding power or not. But it didn't look good at all and that was enough for me.

Hang your own hang of course.

**Rat** · 11-19-2010, 13:00

Yea, I've seen it. And I totally understand not wanting to use it based on how it looks, that is up to each individuals personal comfort level. I'm just saying I don't think it compromises the rope to the point of failure, especially how we use it. I also know that the recommended circumference of an eye thimble is 5 times the diameter of the rope, and we don't do that either when we run Amsteel through a biner.

I think I will set up a test this weekend to take it to failure, see where it breaks.

**skyclad** · 11-19-2010, 14:25

I did sleep in the backyard last night in my DIY hammock with amsteel ends connected to steel rings via the garda hitch. They did slip and I had to retie a couple of times, using slipped half hitches. Earlier today I ordered some climb-spec tubular webbing from REI, and will replace the amsteel when it arrives. I will continue to use the garda hitch with my HHDJ, at least until some new and unforeseen development occurs. It is an easy and useful way to hang.

It was chilly (31) and windy last night, but I stayed comfy in my RayWay quilt and Winter Crow's Nest!

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this discussion.
sky