I need a better knot

[LowTech]

Reading all this was like breaking code...but I learned some stuff.
Shug

I had a cheat sheet, I used my "Knots 3D" app. Other than the few I use all the time I always have to look up what knot people are referencing.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[LowTech]

I'd be interested in knowing if a regular Pile Hitch (with no extra wraps or twists) performs better than the standard Clove Hitch in terms of not getting overly tight with tension on both ends as in your set-up.

The first day I used it was an all day wind, and I don't mean breeze, and then that night we had a thunderstorm roll in. I think that was the first time I had my tarp out in the last three weeks or so, remember that this hitch was being used on my shade cloth poles.
That morning was an early vending day so we were up and and rolling the shade first thing. The pile hitch came off w/o a hitch. I then used it on the shade poles for our vending setup and again no issues removing it at the end of a windy day where it had been yanked on loads of times (my lady is bad about not retentioning the shade when starts to get flappy).
This was the hitch in its base form, not multiple wraps or w/ the bight "braided". The poles I'm using have a bit of a shelf as can be seen in the photo I posted previously, so I'm not fighting to keep the line from sliding down the pole. I'm going to have to come up w/ a different pole so that I can test it on something w/o a shelf to stop it sliding down.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[LowTech]

Maybe the "simplest" solution to the original stated problem is to use two pieces of line. First, tie the fly/tarp off to the pole tip with any one of the suitable slippery hitches offered up here by various folks, Then, add a second line with a small fixed loop on one end. Slide that fixed loop down on top of the chosen hitch and run the other end to the stake.

The reason I don't use two lines is that I'm often taking this down while it's still windy and by myself. With just one line, and a sliding friction hitch coming back from the stake, I can drop the pole out and still have that corner of the shade/tarp attached to the stake. The sliding hitch allows me to re-tention the line and then I can go to the other corner to drop that one. That saves me from having a loose corner whipping around.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[LowTech]

funny you should say that, i've been deliberating if to take this further or to let it rest (as it would be offtopic kind of, given the oroginal request)

having said all this, i would do it differently, when the pole is always used in much the same way: i would make a small piece of cord which i would tie to the pole with some version of the pile hitch, or some preferred friction hitch (doesn't have to be simple, as you only tie it once). i'd ltake another piece and make a blake hitch on the guyline, that will stay there, only to be used in porch mode. when it's time for porch mode, i'd make a quick connection between the two, now i have an easy way to change the position of the pole on the guyline (the blake) and an easy way to change the posjtion of the guyline on the pole (the pile hitch or icicle or what have you), when needed to separate them, there's quick release, without ever having to tie or untie anything. for the quick connection/quick release i'd use my "uni-shackle", which is nice for these purposes, as it is meant to work at the end of the line (so could be integrated in the blake), and can be constructed to be quick release even under tension. the only disadvantage is it would lose a few cm of height on the pole. it is a bit more involved to set it up, but once setup, it's really nice and fast, and versatile. it is a bit too far from what the op requested though, so i decided to be quiet about it. ahem, oh, wait.

I may have to revisit this suggestion when I have more time to experiment.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[LowTech]

When dressing or tightening multiple pile hitch,
Be sure all strands are flat to pole, and compacted close together. Pull hard both cords as they exit the hitch.
Then use a side to side motion while pulling hard on both cords. Then pull hard with all your might to get multiple pile hitch as tight as possible before pulling along long axis of pole.
How can so simple a hitch, grip so well?
I dunno

Thanks for the testing and suggestions! I've been involved w/ vending and then a relocate of our camp so I've been too busy to do more than just use the pile hitch in its base form.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[nanok]

really cool to hear how it works in "the real world". and glad it is working well for you.

it's interesting what you describe, it sounds like your setup is most likely "vehicle nearby" (car camping style)? and the challenges you face make me think some other of my older ideas (some of which don't make much sense for "lightweight camping") might be interesting.

the first thing, which applies to all tarp setups imo: i'd keep the friction hitch at the tarp (and have it integrated in a soft shackle like the one i described); this way, adjustments are easy and quick, you have the entire length to adjust, and when needing to remove the pole as you describe, you could almost do it one handed while keeping the tarp in tension. in porch mode, the reality is you might endup with two of these shackle-frction-hitches, one at the tarp corner, and one at the stake or the pole (depends on your preference), because it is just easier to be able to adjust both sides of the pole independently.

for the more fancy stuff:
very briefly, i would consider something like this, to deal with the gusty winds and do away with any readjustments needed for a flappy tarp: at the pole, i'd run the guyline through a plastic ring or small binner, and attach a water bottle to the end, let gravity keep the tension. the friction hitch is still useful to adjust the length of travel, but gravity plus the improvised pulley will do the work of keeping the line "at the chosen tension". the friction in the imperfect pulley also helps, as it "dampens" the movements (so it doesn't react to the wind dropping instantly). there's also a possibility to tie a second pile hitch (maybe a braided one), or some other trustworthy friction hitch on the bottom of the pole, and attach a second improvised pulley there, now run the guyline down and then back to the top one, before hanging the weight, this way you will get some mechanical advantage (and some added friction too, so it only works so far) which might be handy for heavier tarps (as you might not want to hang huge weights to match the tarp size/weight). i could go on. by the time we're done, you might be selling tickets to give people a tour of the setup .

let us know when you are back in "lab mode", i like this (ground anchors too, btw)

[LowTech]

@nanok on the flapping shade of our vending setup, it's not because of the hitch "self adjusting" it's because the guylines go to 35lb sandbags (we can't and wouldn't want to stake most places we set up) so the sandbags will creep closer to the poles. I keep the poles at a bit of an angle so it's easy for her to adjust the tension, which she mostly doesn't, and then occasionally I'll angle the poles down and pull the sandbags out farther. Sometimes if I'm not around I'll return and find the tarp flapping.

I had said before that I was using the midshipman's hitch but now I'm thinking that it's actually the tautline hitch and I feel I need to change that to maybe the Blake's as I've had it slip some in my latest setup, same setup, different location.

As far as vehicle supported "camping", yes, kind of. I'm one of those rare lifelong nomads so "most" of what I own is w/ me most of the time. That is unless I'm out bikepacking, kayak camping, backpacking, or on a trip where I don't bring my rig. Also why I can have multiple poles of the "not light" variety and a collection of ground anchors. Plus ratchet straps, cam lock straps, and rope are just part of daily life. You can see in some of my "One Tree" hangs I'm just using what I already have to stay off the ground. Though lately I've been testing smaller and lighter options so that I know what works when I need to go lighter, things like UCRs and smaller ground anchors that I can take on the bike or kayak.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

[nanok]

ah, thanks for the pic, that looks amazing, and it helps understand a few things

blake hitch: yes, highly recommended, much better, don't look back, especially if you use it as a separate tensioner at the tieouts (so not folded over, like with the rolling hitch). this way you would not have to retie it.

i like the sandbags solution, i agree with you. my gravity assisted pulley might still make sense, but needs to be tested, at that angle, and with how beautifully full that sail is in the wind (big aerodynamic forces there), i can understand it can be tricky. i am surprised the sandbags would crawl along the ground at that angle though, i'd consider ways to help them stay put (give them more grip on the bottom somehow, or even dig a tiny bit of an incline in front of them, if it is possible/not too disruptive, so that they would have to travel up not just along, to creep)

right now, my first quick thoughts to make this a bit better would be: indeed, go for the blake hitch. then consider a bit shallower angle on the guylines (so the sandbags a bit farther from the tarp), this will reduce the tension needed in the guylines a lot. then i would consider to "split" the sandbags somehow (maybe just a third one could be enough), what i mean by that is try to add a second guyline to each pole, so it stops them from changing their angle, because with that geometry, a little angle change on the pole quickly leaves you with a slack guyline (and then flapping, shock loads in the gusts, and hence more trouble from there, sort of cascading.

i think if you adjust these three things, it would already do away with a lot of troubles

[nanok]

ùthe next thing is the aerodynamics. i have some idea there (although it would change the look of your setup a lot, not sure you will want that, but we'll see). the question right now is what is that shade sail, is it woven fabric, or something else (it matters for how it behaves when tensioned), and if woven what direction is the weave (is it parallel with the edges? that's most common), and what fibers (nylon, cotton etc, it looks like it might be some sort of cotton canvas, but hard to be sure from the pic)

[TominMN]

On the off chance that the Pile Hitch gets over-tight from gusts, I'm thinking that a slippery Half Hitch with a toggle would be even simpler than a slippery Clove Hitch with a toggle. Nice to skip needing to add the toggle though if possible.

(Have we beaten this dead horse to a pulp yet?)