I need a better knot

**LowTech** · 06-08-2023, 17:19

So w/ my desert setup I've been using a couple expandable poles to hold my shade cloth in "porch mode". On the shade cloth I have guylines attached to the cloth and I've just been doing a midshipman's knot after doing a round turn (going around the stake twice) so that I can adjust the line easily. To hold it up in porch mode I've been using a clove hitch on the little rods that points up on the tent poles. That has worked great at keeping the poles attached even in high winds and the only pressure applied to the poles is downward, so no bent ends, but come time to release it after some time in the wind and it can turn into a bit of a challenge, especially if I'm taking it down while the wind is blowing.
Open to trying suggestions but I do need it to cinch to the pole, just a loop won't do, and still release easily.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-08-2023, 17:58

I’m not sure if this will help.

Instead of clove hitch around pole
Wrap the guy line around the pole three times.
Finish with a half hitch, followed by a slipped half hitch, and stabilized with a daisy chain-about three stitches (loop through loop through loop)

This will hold, is made with simple knots that are GarnaUteed to never slip and best of all never jam.
To release, just pull loose end (rip cord)—Daisy chain will disappear as well as slipped half hitch.
Then all that is left to untie is a half hitch and unwrap guy line from pole.

Good luck!

**TominMN** · 06-08-2023, 18:18

If I'm envisioning this properly, after being secured to the top of the pole, the line needs to continue on down to the stake. Can the pole be at the corner of the fly? Could you then use a grommet and pass that little rod through the grommet and secure it with some form of keeper? A pin through a drilled hole? Something like a donut with a thumb setscrew (drill bit stop collar?) that could be stored on the pole?

**cmoulder** · 06-08-2023, 18:37

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but you can tie the slipped version of both clove and midshipman's hitch. I've been doing this for a long time with no problems.

**cmoulder** · 06-08-2023, 18:43

You can also try a Farrimond hitch if you like, but it is essentially another slipped friction hitch... with the advantage that it is an 'exploding' knot.

**LowTech** · 06-08-2023, 21:14

Originally Posted by TominMN

If I'm envisioning this properly, after being secured to the top of the pole, the line needs to continue on down to the stake. Can the pole be at the corner of the fly? Could you then use a grommet and pass that little rod through the grommet and secure it with some form of keeper? A pin through a drilled hole? Something like a donut with a thumb setscrew (drill bit stop collar?) that could be stored on the pole?

You are correct about the line. After I get it to the stake I go around it twice and then back towards the pole. Part of the way there I tie the midshipman's hitch. That way I have all the distance between the stakes and the poles for adjustability.
The problem w/ grommets, and I could rant about this in length having always been into textiles, is basically that they cut a hole in what previously was a strong weave or knit and then you're supposed to pull on that part of the material.
If I put the pole tip in the grommet and then guy down the shade cloth I'll just push the grommet out eventually and I'll have the pole sticking through the hole while the tarp flaps around . . . been there.
If I attached the shade to the pole and attached the guylines from the stake to the pole separately, then it just tries to pull the pole apart.
So pole in the line a couple inches from the tarp or shade is definitely the tested best method out here. Most of the time I can just wrap the line around the tip of the pole a couple times and all's good, but the winds we've been experiencing at our newest encampment for the last few months keep that method from working. One good 20mph+ gust and that pole can get twisted out of the guyline (I think it's because multiple wraps just make a spiral that under force ends up straightening out).
The clove hitch has worked great, pole stays in place no matter the wind speed/gusts but when it comes time to take it off the pole, often w/ the shade to stake still connected so I can quickly adjust out the slack, then it takes some work to get it to release.

Maybe I'll add a little quick release pull-loop to the clove hitch . . .

"Sent w/o me knowing"

**LowTech** · 06-08-2023, 21:15

Originally Posted by cmoulder

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but you can tie the slipped version of both clove and midshipman's hitch. I've been doing this for a long time with no problems.

Can I do that mid line? I can't imagine how.

"Sent w/o me knowing"

**TominMN** · 06-09-2023, 06:15

Originally Posted by LowTech

...
The problem w/ grommets, and I could rant about this in length having always been into textiles, is basically that they cut a hole in what previously was a strong weave or knit and then you're supposed to pull on that part of the material.
If I put the pole tip in the grommet and then guy down the shade cloth I'll just push the grommet out eventually and I'll have the pole sticking through the hole while the tarp flaps around . . . been there.
If I attached the shade to the pole and attached the guylines from the stake to the pole separately, then it just tries to pull the pole apart.
...

I get it. Normally a clove hitch has all the tension coming from the lead with the bitter end hanging loose. In your case, that end also has tension on it and the clove hitch (or any other hitch) gets tightened via those forces from both ends. I don't envision any simple way to add a release function to a clove hitch as you've been using it.

I get it that you want all of the forces applied directly to the tip of the pole so that the primary force is compression and not stress the pole at any other point. And I understand the issue with grommets and fabric.

How about this: A short "dogbone" made of strong webbing that can be larksheaded to the fly/tarp. Attach line to the other loop. Put a grommet on the webbing. Those ones with the teeth are best and webbing would be far less subject to failure than fabric. Easily replaceable even if it does fail. Then you just need some sort of mechanical retainer to keep the pole tip in the grommet until you want to release it.

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-09-2023, 08:12

If guy line has to go further after attaching to top of pole, after daisy chain slip the loose end through the last stitch of daisy chain. Then guy line can continue on further. Then to release, remove that last full stitch and rest of knot I described earlier will release with a pull.
If three wraps are coming undone in an extended spiral, then, after three wraps run guy line back under beginning of first wrap.
I’m not sure, good luck.

You can tie a fixed loop and tie a prusik around pole with that loop. If you used an alpine butterfly hitch then both ends of guy line can support tension as the guy line goes on to other tasks.

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-09-2023, 08:19

Originally Posted by cmoulder

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but you can tie the slipped version of both clove and midshipman's hitch. I've been doing this for a long time with no problems.

I agree with you. The clove hitch can be tied with a slipped finish. Then that slipped bight can be sealed by inserting loose end of guy line through slipped bight. Now that guy line can be tensioned as it continues on to other tasks.
Then when breaking camp, pull guy line out of slipped bight. Now slipped bight is no longer locked.
And a simple pull will release slipped clove hitch.