I need a better knot

**Redoleary** · 06-11-2023, 15:16

I was going to suggest the pile hitch but looks like you guys are on it. I always use it on my stakes, except for the rare instance when I used the fixed eye in the end of my line. Heres an easy method for the pile hitch that works well for stakes, might not be so handy for a long pole.

**TominMN** · 06-11-2023, 16:19

I'd be interested in knowing if a regular Pile Hitch (with no extra wraps or twists) performs better than the standard Clove Hitch in terms of not getting overly tight with tension on both ends as in your set-up.

**OlTrailDog** · 06-11-2023, 16:47

Originally Posted by TominMN

I'd be interested in knowing if a regular Pile Hitch (with no extra wraps or twists) performs better than the standard Clove Hitch in terms of not getting overly tight with tension on both ends as in your set-up.

If the clove hitch is "slippery" it can't become overly tight as you simply pull the end to undo. It also appears the pile hitch is used by tying the cordage to the stake first versus plant the stake where you want it and then tie the slippery clove hitch, i.e. two completely different approaches.

**TominMN** · 06-11-2023, 16:54

Originally Posted by OlTrailDog

If the clove hitch is "slippery" it can't become overly tight as you simply pull the end to undo. It also appears the pile hitch is used by tying the cordage to the stake first versus plant the stake where you want it and then tie the slippery clove hitch, i.e. two completely different approaches.

When I wrote "standard" Cove Hitch, I was implying using it non-slippery as LowTech (the OP) originally was doing. As far as the Pile Hitch, I believe the discussion is about using it mid-line at the support pole, not the end at the stake. The whole thread has been primarily addressing the hitch at the pole. I believe LowTech intends to keep using the Midshipman's at the stake.

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-11-2023, 21:34

Possibly best knot to resist pull in all directions on a pole.
Boom Hitch
You can find Boom Hitch on Grog Knot app for your phone.
And you can find Boom Hitch on YouTube. There are several videos. I recommend using video by Animated Knots—that is same as Grog Knots.

It is simple to tie, and can be finished with a slipped bight, making it very easy to release!

**TominMN** · 06-12-2023, 03:19

Maybe the "simplest" solution to the original stated problem is to use two pieces of line. First, tie the fly/tarp off to the pole tip with any one of the suitable slippery hitches offered up here by various folks, Then, add a second line with a small fixed loop on one end. Slide that fixed loop down on top of the chosen hitch and run the other end to the stake.

**nanok** · 06-13-2023, 05:54

Originally Posted by TominMN

Maybe the "simplest" solution to the original stated problem is to use two pieces of line. First, tie the fly/tarp off to the pole tip with any one of the suitable slippery hitches offered up here by various folks, Then, add a second line with a small fixed loop on one end. Slide that fixed loop down on top of the chosen hitch and run the other end to the stake.

funny you should say that, i've been deliberating if to take this further or to let it rest (as it would be offtopic kind of, given the oroginal request)

having said all this, i would do it differently, when the pole is always used in much the same way: i would make a small piece of cord which i would tie to the pole with some version of the pile hitch, or some preferred friction hitch (doesn't have to be simple, as you only tie it once). i'd ltake another piece and make a blake hitch on the guyline, that will stay there, only to be used in porch mode. when it's time for porch mode, i'd make a quick connection between the two, now i have an easy way to change the position of the pole on the guyline (the blake) and an easy way to change the posjtion of the guyline on the pole (the pile hitch or icicle or what have you), when needed to separate them, there's quick release, without ever having to tie or untie anything. for the quick connection/quick release i'd use my "uni-shackle", which is nice for these purposes, as it is meant to work at the end of the line (so could be integrated in the blake), and can be constructed to be quick release even under tension. the only disadvantage is it would lose a few cm of height on the pole. it is a bit more involved to set it up, but once setup, it's really nice and fast, and versatile. it is a bit too far from what the op requested though, so i decided to be quiet about it. ahem, oh, wait.

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-13-2023, 12:03

I checked on Boom Hitch resistance to pull on a metal shepherd stake (shaped like a nail, with a curved hook on top) using 2.2 Zingit cord.
It held against my hand pull a time or two, until the dirt or rust on stake came off.
Then it didn’t hold as well.
It did hold much better when pulling cord end that performed all the steps while being tied. The other end of cord—when pulled, allowed boom hitch to slide easily on stake.

I then tested a multiple pile hitch on same stake with same 2.2 cord. I tested both 5 or 6 wraps (yielding 10 or 12 coils) and it held better and in both directions. I pulled both ends of cord at same time.
I know, not very scientific!

I think original poster will be putting knot or hitch on hiking pole used for tarp porch mode.

Then I tied multiple pile hitch with only 3 wraps (yielding 6 coils-since cord is doubled in a bight)
When fully tightened this 3 wrap multiple pile hitch held very well. Not as good as 5 or 6 wraps, but surprisingly well.

Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised, because structure of multiple pile hitch is remarkably similar to structure of Icicle Hitch. Icicle Hitch was developed specifically to grip a pole and resist slipping on long axis of pole.

Performance of various knots and poles used while camping will vary depending on materials used,and hitches used. For Icicle Hitch and Multiple Pile Hitch to hold fast, they must be dressed or tightened thoroughly.

I hope you find something that works for you.
Lots of good ideas in this thread.
Good luck!

**Phantom Grappler** · 06-13-2023, 16:05

When dressing or tightening multiple pile hitch,
Be sure all strands are flat to pole, and compacted close together. Pull hard both cords as they exit the hitch.
Then use a side to side motion while pulling hard on both cords. Then pull hard with all your might to get multiple pile hitch as tight as possible before pulling along long axis of pole.
How can so simple a hitch, grip so well?
I dunno

**OlTrailDog** · 06-13-2023, 16:58

Originally Posted by TominMN

When I wrote "standard" Cove Hitch, I was implying using it non-slippery as LowTech (the OP) originally was doing. As far as the Pile Hitch, I believe the discussion is about using it mid-line at the support pole, not the end at the stake. The whole thread has been primarily addressing the hitch at the pole. I believe LowTech intends to keep using the Midshipman's at the stake.

My mistake. I was assuming it was at the stake end due to both the YT video posted by Redoleary on this page., and secondly, unlike the clove hitch the pile hitch exits the pile hitch knot with both lines in the same direction hence it's use with a pile. I reread the OP and you are correct about which knot was the OP's focus. But I can see that a Pile Hitch may work mid-line and I think I will give it a try to see how well it works.

Regarding the Boom Hitch suggested by Phantom, if it is used mid-line a slippery bight for untying would not be feasible as it would pull loose under normal use. Secondly, it certainly seems overkill for simply securing a tarp/pole.