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Thread: Down color

  1. #21
    Countrybois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmazuro View Post
    I just wanted to caution about that last statement…(I don’t want people to think they are getting an inferior product if their quilt manufacturer uses treated down). A lot of manufacturers use treated down, some don’t. I don’t see any kind of mass exodus away from treated down. It’s been debated for years. MY OPINION.
    kris
    Agreed! Plenty of mfgs still use DWR treated down and it is still my preference.

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  2. #22
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmazuro View Post
    I just wanted to caution about that last statement…(I don’t want people to think they are getting an inferior product if their quilt manufacturer uses treated down). A lot of manufacturers use treated down, some don’t. I don’t see any kind of mass exodus away from treated down. It’s been debated for years. It seems for all the info you find deeming it unnecessary or even harmful you’ll find twice as much out their touting the benefits…. MY OPINION.
    kris
    Early on I was skeptical of hydrophobic treatments but I have some Downtek items and they are still working well.

    And you are correct — I should have said *some* manufacturers are moving away from it. HG 950 is not treated; 800 duck and 850 goose are. UGQ moved away from treated down altogether several years ago, EE a few years ago. Maybe there's a list somewhere for which mfgrs do/don't use hydrophobic treated down.
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  3. #23
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    A couple of takes, and take from it what you will. I've used both quite a bit and I still don't know.

    Western Mountaineering....

    Why isn’t Western Mountaineering using hydrophobic down in any products?
    We have found in our own testing that the performance enhancements of hydrophobic treatments on high quality down are widely overstated. High quality untreated down already has naturally water repellant oils on it left by the geese (makes sense since geese spend a lot of time in water). These oils help repel water and keep down lofted. More importantly is that these oils last indefinitely. Hydrophobic treatments wash out like a DWR and remove the natural oils during the application process. Because of this, and the water resistant capability of our shell fabrics, we feel that hydrophobic down does not provide a considerable impact on performance and could actually inhibit performance over the lifetime of our products.
    -----------------------------

    UGQ....

    UltimaDOWN is not a hydrophobic treated down. Although we have offered hydrophobic treated down in the past, we have weighed the benefits vs. drawbacks carefully, and have recently stopped offering WR down. The benefits, which are marginal at best in real world scenarios, are offset by lower loft, intra laundering clumping, and the need for more down to offset the lower lofting and possible clumping. Effective April 11, 2016, we will no longer use hydrophobic down in our products.
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  4. #24

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    Not to beat a dead horse….Just to show another makers (katabatic) view. ( taken from another forum).
    also worth noting is that most all this talk either for or against is from 4 years ago.
    Kris

    Here is Katabatic's response:

    WM has had the statement on their site since DWR treatments first came out. While I would agree that the performance benefit wasn’t as great when the technology was new, I don’t feel that way any longer. The treatment has come a long way. It has been our experience that the treatment is very helpful, especially in situations when your sweat vapor is likely to condense back into liquid form before it escapes through the shell fabric. This is more common in when temps are well below freezing. We’ve also found it to be very helpful in continuously damp conditions when you don’t have a chance to let your bag dry in the sun. The HyperDry helps the down maintain its loft longer in these situations, and it dries faster, too.
    Our supplier disagrees that the treatment negatively affects the natural oils in the down. Also, if you use only a proper detergent that is appropriate for down and DWR treatments when washing your sleeping bag, (like NikWax Down Wash Direct), it is highly unlikely to wash out, unless you wash your bag numerous times per year. Mostly people probably don’t even wash their sleeping bag 10 times in a lifetime, so that shouldn’t be an issue.
    All this said, if you’re accustomed to using untreated down, know how to take care of it, and those above scenarios don’t really apply to you, then it sounds like you wouldn’t benefit much from the treatment anyway.

  5. #25
    DGrav's Avatar
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    Back in the day when JRB was testing out treated down, I was the lead tester. I had hiked for years with untreated down and never had an issue and the same seemed to be true of treated down. So I was left thinking, "Is this just snake oil?"

    After about a year of testing, I took my brother-in-law on a backpacking trip It was a wet fall weekend, and all four quilts (three treated, one not treated) performed perfectly. When I got home I decided the quilts could use a washing after a season of heavy use. The three treated quilts dried in 1.5 cycles in my dryer with no dryer balls and no need for pulling the clumps of wet down apart. The one untreated quilt took 4 cycles with dryer balls and pulling the clumps of wet down apart every half hour or so. Since one of the claims of dry down is that it will dry faster than untreated down I started to believe that it did have some of the claimed benefits.

    After that, I tried a totally unscientific test and soaked two quilts (one treated and one non-treated.) The treated quilt took much longer to completely soak through.

    My opinion after about ten years of regular use is that treated down does perform as advertised with no negative impact. I do not believe it is necessary, but I do think the little extra protection is nice to have. I also think it gives folks who are worried about getting their down wet a bit more peace of mind.
    Jacks R Better, makers of the of the Original Under Quilt and Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock.
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  6. #26
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    That's a well-informed view!

    FWIW, I'll be using my JRB Sierra Stealth for the first time tomorrow night, probably in the hammock but possibly on the ground. Predicted low temp in the high 40s. Looking forward to trying out the serape mode.
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  7. #27
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    I'll go with the katabatic and JRB response - they use less "weenie" words. The other vendors talk about testing, but don't say what that testing was (I personally doubt you could come up with any valid scientific methodology to prove or disprove anything about hydrophobic down). "Possible clumping?" Please. You gotta do better than that.

    I also wonder about cost differential of treated vs. untreated down. Could it be that the "untreated down" vendors are just coming up with arguments because they don't want to cut into their own profit margins?

    Personally, I got rid of all my untreated down quilts about eight years ago and use only treated goose down. I personally don't see any difference, other than the treated down doesn't get as wet.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #28
    Senior Member Rolloff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    That's a well-informed view!

    FWIW, I'll be using my JRB Sierra Stealth for the first time tomorrow night, probably in the hammock but possibly on the ground. Predicted low temp in the high 40s. Looking forward to trying out the serape mode.
    You will love it. I had mine probably 3 years before leaving my much too large, at the time, puffer home and giving the serape mode a try. Works surprisingly well. Perfect length for me. I can sit on my Stansport stool and easily keep the ends of the quilt off the ground. Being a volume weenie I still kick myself for dragging that puffer around. You pack for your fears and pocketstrings
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  9. #29
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolloff View Post
    You will love it. I had mine probably 3 years before leaving my much too large, at the time, puffer home and giving the serape mode a try. Works surprisingly well. Perfect length for me. I can sit on my Stansport stool and easily keep the ends of the quilt off the ground. Being a volume weenie I still kick myself for dragging that puffer around. You pack for your fears and pocketstrings
    Good to know! I've been itching to give it a real 'go' after buying it this Spring, and it's just now getting cool enough to justify... right on the verge of needing a camp puffy. I hope to use it a lot this fall, the best time of the year.
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