Underquilt Fabric Argon 90 vs 15d

[brohawk]

I am looking at ordering a 0 degree underquilt for my RR for winter camping as I sleep cold. I am torn between Warbonnet full length Lynx out of 15d or 20d or do I go with Loco Libre who uses Argon 67 & 90?
I have read some of the posts on fabrics and see that the main difference between Argon 67 & 90 is the feel which I don't think would matter in an UQ application. Is there one fabric over another that would do best as the outer shell? Is one lighter or more compressible than the other?
I know both vendors make great gear and both use top quality fabrics. I am just hoping to spend the money once on the best option that is light and will keep me warmest. I am still doing research on the 850 vs 950 down so I figured I would at least get the fabric and manufacturer decided. Appreciate any input or experience.

[georgecarr]

The argon 67 will save about 1/2 ounce per side, but the 90 is slightly more wind resistant. Argon 67 will be slightly more compressible, but on a bridge uq that's not as much of an issue bc the quilt is smaller in size compared to a gathered end quilt.

As far a down goes we offer 900 fill in all of our quilts as that is a good balance between weight/loft vs cost.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[brohawk]

Thanks for the info. What is the main difference between Argon 90 and 15d? And is your 900 fill a mixture of goose and duck down?

[georgecarr]

Both 90 and 15d are 15 denier materials. Same weight, different maker.

I only use goose down. Nothing wrong with duck, but I've never found a reliable supplier of high fill power duck.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[brohawk]

Thanks for all the help Georgecarr , I appreciate it. Do you happen to have any Memorial Day sales coming up?

[georgecarr]

Thanks for all the help Georgecarr , I appreciate it. Do you happen to have any Memorial Day sales coming up?

No, nothing planned for Memorial Day. Sorry.

[sideshowraheem]

Thanks for all the help Georgecarr , I appreciate it. Do you happen to have any Memorial Day sales coming up?

His quilts are worth full price trust me! I've got 3 now and I want to be buried with them when the time comes!

[PopcornFool]

Argon 67 = 10D
Argon 90 = 15D

Denier is just a unit of measurement that describes the thickness of the threads/fibers used to make the fabric. As George alluded, there are many types of fabrics that all use the same denier thread. It's kind of like North Face TKA100, Patagonia R1, and Polartech Thermal Pro Lightweight all being different names for 100 weight fleece. Different fabric manufacturers may use the same denier (thickness) of thread, but make their fabrics using different kinds of thread, varying thread counts, unique weaving techniques, added coatings, etc. to serve different purposes. For example, Argon 67, Membrane 10 (M10) Taffeta or Ripstop Nylon, 1.4oz WPB (using Nylon 6), and even NS50 Noseeum Mesh are all 10D fabrics, but I certainly wouldn't use Noseeum Mesh to create a down UQ.

When it comes to underquilts, I have personally found that lower denier 10D fabrics like Argon 67 and M10T, or even 7D like Membrane 7 and MTN 7, are perfectly adequate, generally weigh less, take up less space when compressed in my pack, and are durable enough for purpose if you aren't hard on your gear. However, they will sometimes provide a bit less wind resistance. If you aren't worried about pack weight and space, then 15D or 20D fabrics like Argon 90 or M20 and MRS20 will provide a bit more durability and wind resistance.

To answer your specific question ... there isn't a massive difference in weight and compressibility between 10D/15D/20D fabrics but there is some. If you are a gram counter and/or frequent backpacker and those are major concerns for you (AND all else being equal), then I'd recommend going with a 10D fabric (like Argon 67) or even a 7D fabric (if offered and cost is not an issue). But keep in mind that all else is rarely equal. Generally the biggest differences between vendors (and even different UQs from the same vendor) that affect weight and compressibiltiy are the features of each quilt like baffle designs, length/width, suspensions, draft collars, quilt hooks, etc. It is possible for a 10D quilt from one vendor to weigh more than a 20D quilt from another. Personally, I would first decide on which quilt from which vendor I wanted based on the features, and then, if the vendor has options, I would choose the lowest denier fabric I could afford. But that's just me.

Finally, I agree with you that hand feel isn't a particularly important factor for underquilts, IMO. For top quilts though... now that's a different story.

[cmoulder]

PopcornFool, good recap of my views on this as well. Although when we're talking about our beloved () teensy UL packs the difference between 10D and 20D, as you note, becomes significant. With a 65 liter pack it doesn't matter; 35 liter is a different story.

There is also such a thing as Argon 49 (7D) but I've not seen or read about it in actual use yet, although I haven't searched exhaustively for it.

But to me Argon is the perfect material for UQs, being quite splash and wind resistant.

[brohawk]

Argon 67 = 10D
Argon 90 = 15D

Denier is just a unit of measurement that describes the thickness of the threads/fibers used to make the fabric. As George alluded, there are many types of fabrics that all use the same denier thread. It's kind of like North Face TKA100, Patagonia R1, and Polartech Thermal Pro Lightweight all being different names for 100 weight fleece. Different fabric manufacturers may use the same denier (thickness) of thread, but make their fabrics using different kinds of thread, varying thread counts, unique weaving techniques, added coatings, etc. to serve different purposes. For example, Argon 67, Membrane 10 (M10) Taffeta or Ripstop Nylon, 1.4oz WPB (using Nylon 6), and even NS50 Noseeum Mesh are all 10D fabrics, but I certainly wouldn't use Noseeum Mesh to create a down UQ.

When it comes to underquilts, I have personally found that lower denier 10D fabrics like Argon 67 and M10T, or even 7D like Membrane 7 and MTN 7, are perfectly adequate, generally weigh less, take up less space when compressed in my pack, and are durable enough for purpose if you aren't hard on your gear. However, they will sometimes provide a bit less wind resistance. If you aren't worried about pack weight and space, then 15D or 20D fabrics like Argon 90 or M20 and MRS20 will provide a bit more durability and wind resistance.

To answer your specific question ... there isn't a massive difference in weight and compressibility between 10D/15D/20D fabrics but there is some. If you are a gram counter and/or frequent backpacker and those are major concerns for you (AND all else being equal), then I'd recommend going with a 10D fabric (like Argon 67) or even a 7D fabric (if offered and cost is not an issue). But keep in mind that all else is rarely equal. Generally the biggest differences between vendors (and even different UQs from the same vendor) that affect weight and compressibiltiy are the features of each quilt like baffle designs, length/width, suspensions, draft collars, quilt hooks, etc. It is possible for a 10D quilt from one vendor to weigh more than a 20D quilt from another. Personally, I would first decide on which quilt from which vendor I wanted based on the features, and then, if the vendor has options, I would choose the lowest denier fabric I could afford. But that's just me.

Finally, I agree with you that hand feel isn't a particularly important factor for underquilts, IMO. For top quilts though... now that's a different story.

Wow!!! Thank you for the comparison. This is just the info I was looking for. I am not a gram weenie but with my winter pack I would like to keep my weight as low as possible because of the larger quilts and more warmer clothing I pack.
After reading this I think your right and will definitely go with a 10d or Argon 67. I was concerned about the durability of the outer shell but I am pretty careful with my gear and I use an UQ protector in the winter anyway.
Now that the fabrics are out of the way the biggest decision that I have been struggling with is vendor. LL has given me some great info and they have a great design with tons of followers. They run a 900 down fill. Warbonnet has a 950 fill option and they are having a Memorial Day sale coming up. Then right here in my backyard I have JRB which I have never owned but they have the Mt. Washington 4 with baffles running side to side with a 25% overstuff for less than the others but their total weights are just a tad more. Decisions, decisions....