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  1. #11
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    HA! I do think so, unless you are also going to cook meth while you are out! But, the price seems right. For a full suit with hood? OTOH, are they disposable? Which I guess means very fragile and not very reusable. Yep, a bit overkill, but would work. I think I'll just stick with my SWL VB shirt and socks lined with FuzzyStuff, and my WPB rain gear pants under my puffy pants or just under my TQ, depending on temps.

    Then again, just wearing my WPB pants and hooed jacket seemed to work really well that one time, as far as boosting warmth at least. But I've not yet been able to put it to the test to see if it truly works as well to keep body moisture out of the insulation. I've never understood how something supposedly breathable can also work as a VB, but people say they do. Even SWL(sellers of VBs) says they will work. And if they do work even almost as well as a true VB, then that means nothing extra has to be purchased, or packed and carried. Then again, if you have been needing your rain gear as actual rain gear and it has not dried out by bed time, that might be a problem. Or, if you need your rain gear while sitting around camp(or doing chores) in the cold, blowing snow AND are wishing for a VB? Pros and Cons, but I will probably stick with just packing something extra that can work as a VB if needed. Either way, this approach sure has added to my warmth assurance.
    Re: WPB as VB, I agree with you that it slows the rate of vapor transmission and does indeed help.

    A multi-purpose "VB suit" that I've mentioned before — and apologies if I'm beating it to death, again — is the Lightheart Gear rain jacket (hooded) and pants that are made of silpoly with PU coating, which is not breathable. The jacket has very generous pit zips and Velcro cuffs, and of course full front zipper, and it ventilates adequately when needed. The pants not so much... no zips at all except down near the cuffs to facilitate donning them over shoes. However, recently I had my local tailor put some 16" zips from thigh to calf and they are perfect now.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillbillyHanger View Post
    .........................
    4. I usually carry a jacket (puffy or down). You can put the jack on "backwards". Slip your arms into the jacket with your chest facing the jacket. I often do this in the Winter when I wake up with that "Phantom Chill" around 4 to 5 am.
    Thanks for reminding me of that trick, HillbillyHanger! I can't remember who I got that idea from, maybe Shug? Not sure, 13 or 14 years ago! But that worked very well indeed for me on my first trip back to the Wind River Mountains in September at 10,000+ ft with lows in the 20F range. And for my 1st other than back yard use of the 20F rated Speer Pea Pod. I was trying to count ounces for those multi mile hikes over high mountain passes with such thin air to breath. The one flaw(which could become an advantage at colder than rated temps) of the beloved old pod was that while it was the best thing I had ever used for consistency of meeting it's back warmth rating, not so much on the top. Because of the way a hammock's side edges- especially a wide, deep hammock- would tend to lift the TQ part of the pod off of my body, leaving a gap that needed filling. Ed Speer's rating for himself(a notoriously cold sleeper), with his deep Speer hammock- was only 50F, despite 2.5" of top loft(plus another 2.5" of bottom loft). More like 40 or maybe 30s for me wearing warm clothing. But we were going to very likely be in the 20s or below.

    My hammock at that time- a Claytor No Net- was NOT wide or deep, and any gap was only minimal. Still, it was enough lift where I needed something else. Plus, with ANY gap, if I had any significant face vent, the warm air from leg and torso area would tend to run right out of that, so I needed something like a lofty neck collar. I had a 20F TQ, but that just seemed like over kill. It would way more than fill the gap, and give 5" of single layer top loft! What is the rating of 5" single layer loft? WAY below zero.

    I knew just sleeping in my lofty clothing(inside the pod) would get me pretty close( I was not using VBs yet, except the space blanket in my HHSS, or maybe socks only). Close, but no cigar. Then someone here gave me the idea of wearing my warm clothing- which I had with me anyway- unzipped and BACKWARDS- and boy did that improve the boost from the clothing! I had a nice thick down vest, and a not near as thick Polarguard jacket, and when I put them on backwards, it seemed to puff up a lot more than normal(bottom layer came into use rather than being smashed flat). Any gap was entirely filled, and maybe more important, the huge draft that would arise if I had any significant vent hole over my face was totally fixed, since the clothing now made an excellent neck collar. I felt that if it had been any colder, I would have needed something else(maybe a hot water bottle? or VBs if I had thought about it!) and I decided I would still prefer a 40F or even 50F TQ to fill that gap, just for sheer luxury and convenience. Still, for this week long trip, the cold weather clothing I had with me- worn backwards while sleeping- got me by WITH ZERO ADDED WEIGHT, BULK OR EXPENSE! A very useful trick for CrawlDaddy indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Re: WPB as VB, I agree with you that it slows the rate of vapor transmission and does indeed help.

    A multi-purpose "VB suit" that I've mentioned before — and apologies if I'm beating it to death, again — is the Lightheart Gear rain jacket (hooded) and pants that are made of silpoly with PU coating, which is not breathable. The jacket has very generous pit zips and Velcro cuffs, and of course full front zipper, and it ventilates adequately when needed. The pants not so much... no zips at all except down near the cuffs to facilitate donning them over shoes. However, recently I had my local tailor put some 16" zips from thigh to calf and they are perfect now.
    Oh yes, that will work for sure! And if you(like some) are of the opinion that WPB doesn't really work long term for being breathable or keeping water out, and you are willing to use this for rain gear, 2 problems(need more warmth and need rain protection) fixed with 1 UL item! Also looks better than my SWL VB shirt(which I call my "duct tape shirt". LOL! But, it sure works well! I love it's "Fuzzystuff" liner, really improves VB comfort, IMO.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 05-11-2022 at 11:01.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    LOL yeah Stephenson stuff is kinda ugly. But functional!

    However I have no qualms about using the Frogg Toggs rain jacket on occasion, so lack of fashion is most assuredly not a concern for me.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Re: WPB as VB, I agree with you that it slows the rate of vapor transmission and does indeed help..................................
    CM, I have been wondering: could it be that, whatever breathability WPB clothing actually has is greatly reduced if the temp differential from skin to outside layer is messed up? Normally, the layer under the WPB membrane is very warm and humid, while the outer layer is colder and perhaps also less humid(unless raining of course). I suppose, just as heat flows towards cold, this might provide some sort of differential for body vapor molecules to be carried with body heat towards the outside air? But, what if you insulate that WPB jacket with some thick layers over it? Would that mess up it's already limited breathability and make it almost a complete VB? Hmmmmm. All I know is some claim it works as a VB, and I can attest that the 1 time I tried it (twice for the legs actually), I feel it boosted warmth a whole bunch. I can't say with any assurance that it did as good job of keeping moisture out of my insulation as a full on VB. But, the one time I used a WPB as a faux VB for my legs(torso and feet had true VBs), everything was bone dry the next morning at +6F, inside a hammock sock(also used a frost bib, which was quite wet of course)

  5. #15
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    CM, I have been wondering: could it be that, whatever breathability WPB clothing actually has is greatly reduced if the temp differential from skin to outside layer is messed up? Normally, the layer under the WPB membrane is very warm and humid, while the outer layer is colder and perhaps also less humid(unless raining of course). I suppose, just as heat flows towards cold, this might provide some sort of differential for body vapor molecules to be carried with body heat towards the outside air? But, what if you insulate that WPB jacket with some thick layers over it? Would that mess up it's already limited breathability and make it almost a complete VB? Hmmmmm. All I know is some claim it works as a VB, and I can attest that the 1 time I tried it (twice for the legs actually), I feel it boosted warmth a whole bunch. I can't say with any assurance that it did as good job of keeping moisture out of my insulation as a full on VB. But, the one time I used a WPB as a faux VB for my legs(torso and feet had true VBs), everything was bone dry the next morning at +6F, inside a hammock sock(also used a frost bib, which was quite wet of course)
    I have done that many times — puffy over WPB/VB — and in my opinion it helps, both for increased warmth and reduction of moisture in quilts. Also using plastic grocery bags as VB socks. Frost inside the tarp is unavoidable because of breathing but that doesn't bother me. It brushes right off in the temperature range where I'd be using VB, say 25°F and below. But I'll use it above that temp if I need some warmth. Typically I've used a Mont-bell Peak rain jacket and Marmot Precip pants for WBP in winter, when a more durable shell is desirable.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  6. #16
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    I might have missed it, but if not said, be careful with “extra clothing” because you want unrestricted blood flow. Solutions that don’t add extra clothes are using those hand warmer packets - be careful because some leak their “power” - or adding a bottle of warm water (be sure the lid is tight) inside the quilt. Is the concern just colder temperatures or is it increased heat loss because of wind factors? That can make a difference in your strategy. Remember, you have to make the heat. People have recommended not going to sleep cold (do some exercises first) and eating some high calorie food.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  7. #17
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    Yeah, it’s about less restricted blood flow, but I disagree that clothes have much to do with that. They certainly can, especially for larger body types. But mostly it’s about not letting your own body start to restrict blood flow. There’s a lot of chatter on the physics on insulation, but it seems to leave out the physiology involved.

    For certain, use clothes to keep as warm as you can be prior to turning in, and then take most of them off to let your main insulation do it’s job. Warmed down insulates more efficiently, and it will make you feel warmed which will keep your body’s own safety mechanisms from engaging.

    Easier said than done since a lot of us, myself included, like to feel a little cooled before turning in. Helps me get to sleep easier. That’s another physiological response to be aware of.


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  8. #18
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Speaking of blood flow: did I(or anyone) mention maximizing head warmth? When most of us moved to 20ºF(or whatever) rated quilts from 20F rated mummy bags, both of identical rated thickness, we gave up a major part of the mummy bag's ability to prevent heat loss: the hood at least as thick as the rest of the bag and often with a nice collar to prohibit heat loss from the body out thru the face vent. Personally, I found that loss to be very significant. Though I was very aware of the theory, I did not realize how important it was until I replaced- or even added to- my hats and jacket hoods with a proper separate(Marmot) sleeping bag hood. Later replaced by a not quite as thick- but still plenty thick- JRB hood. Oh what a difference!

    The confirmation of theory came at a Feb HF group hang in the Sipsey Wilderness in Feb 09. I was using a zero F JRB MWUQ under a JRB Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock (which had previously kept me toasty warm at 10F), and a optimistically rated(most seemed to think) 20F down TQ. Wearing a light hooded jacket and a fleece cap. It was 27F, blowing and snowing. About 5" of snow that night after hiking in the rain. I was a bit surprised to notice that, when I woke up to pee about 0200, I was just slightly chilled. I remembered I had that Marmot sleeping bag hood in my pack. I put it on, went back to bed, and in a short while noticed that I was nice and warm. And slept toasty the rest of the night. That was a big difference, from a bit chilled all over to toasty warm. The ONLY change was adding that real hood. Lesson learned.

    Looking at the physiology, a slightly too warm warm brain signals arteries in the extremities to relax and allow warm blood to flow freely. A slightly too cool brain causes the opposite.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Indeed head warmth is just as, and maybe more, important. In addition to the down hood, I add a fleece beanie and fleece buff, such that sometimes my entire face is covered.

    Yes, tight clothing layers can restrict blood flow, so I make sure everything I take in winter is slightly large. Never had an issue wearing multiple layers to augment my sleeping system for more than 30 years now.

    I can't even use down booties, which make my feet far too warm. I also do my best to not depend on external heat such as chemical packets which can go bad and not work, or hot water because in some conditions it is extremely difficult to fire up a stove and/or collect water/snow. If I really *needed* those things to stay warm, I'd be screwed.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    (Emphasis with bold mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Indeed head warmth is just as, and maybe more, important. In addition to the down hood, I add a fleece beanie and fleece buff, such that sometimes my entire face is covered.

    Yes, tight clothing layers can restrict blood flow, so I make sure everything I take in winter is slightly large. Never had an issue wearing multiple layers to augment my sleeping system for more than 30 years now.

    I can't even use down booties, which make my feet far too warm. I also do my best to not depend on external heat such as chemical packets which can go bad and not work, or hot water because in some conditions it is extremely difficult to fire up a stove and/or collect water/snow. If I really *needed* those things to stay warm, I'd be screwed.
    So many folks struggle with cold feet when hammock hanging in cold weather. I have been fortunate to never have that particular problem that I can recall. I have been cold, for sure, but I don't recall cold feet. Although, during those times when I was cold- usually all over- perhaps I would not have noticed my cold feet specifically? Especially during those times when I was just sort of cold all over?

    But, perhaps you can not use down booties without getting overheating feet at least partly because of your more than adequate head insulation? Again thinking of my training years ago in how to keep a patient warm thru hours in a cold operating room. We always concentrated on the head. And the idea that a warm enough, or just barely too warm brain, signals the body to send warm blood away from the brain and to the extremities. And of course that old, old adage: if your feet are cold, put on a hat. But when hammock hanging in cold weather with TQs and UQs, a hat might not be anywhere near enough. Especially for people with cold feet. And there are a bunch of them!

    I am also thinking of when(as mentioned previously) last Christmas at 3500 ft in NC when I layered up a good bit, with faux VBs under my layers, because I did not trust my 30F rated quits- particularly the TQ- in the forecast 20s or below PLUS wind chill(no tarp). When I realized I was way overheating after a couple of hours(25F+ wind), the very first thing I did was get that hood off of my head. The next thing was I got that AHE CCF sit/foot pad out of the foot box of my TQ. Those 2 things helped a LOT, and quickly. But after a while, I with my warm layers including faux VBs, I was still too warm. So I had to remove more layers. But I think the biggest- and quickest- difference noted was when I got that thick down hood off of my head.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 05-16-2022 at 08:39.

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