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  1. #21

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
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    Placer County CA
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    WBRR, WBBB
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post

    regarding the tarp sagging when loading a "flat hang angle" hammock: this will typically happen if the tarp is attached on the hammock suspension, not at the tree (if you attach to the tree straps, or very close to the tree, this won't be much of a problem), and it will happen with line which has no stretch: when you get in the hammock and load the system, the hang angle will significantly increase (because of the physics i was describing above: the angle is shallow, so the loads in the suspension and hammock are multiplied, thus there's more stretch, which will change the hang angle, until an equilibrium is reached); if the tarp ridgeline is attached, for instance, somewhere in the middle of the suspension (between tree and hammock), then with the stretch and change in angle that ensues, the two attachment points will endup closer together, even if not by much, and because dyneema stretches basically none under the loads which a tarp puts on it (because we use hugely oversized dyneema line for tarp ridgelines, otherwise it would be unconfortable to handle -- i have some 1mm dyneema which is rated for 200kgf break strength, that's still too strong, and 1mm is torture already to deal with by hand, especially in the cold), then even a few millimeters of movement will change the tension in the ridgeline to basically zero, resulting in a saggy tarp; the solution is to attach at the tree, or use a ridgeline made of something which will allow you to store some ellastic deformation (like nylon, which everybody seems to recommend against for tarp ridgelines ...because it's stretchy), this way, when the tarp moves, because of wind or suspension movements or what not, the ridgeline will not immediately lose all tension after a few mm of offset, but instead it will "adapt" and stay in varying degrees of tautness, hence avoiding spectacularly flapping tarp shows.

    hmmm so maybe some braided nylon mason line for a hammock suspension attached CRL?

    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    interestingly, depending on how you rig things, on a gathered end hammock, with a structural ridgeline that's "reliable" (so doesn't change dimension under load, like dyneema -- one very good use for dyneema, btw), if the hammock is rigged such that the structural ridgeline does take some of the load (so, the suspension angle is shallower than the gang angle set by the SRL on the hammock), then aside from attaching the tarp ridgeline at the trees, attaching it at the hammock ends (so very close, or at the SRL ends), will also result in no change in tarp tension, when the hammock is loaded (or, for most intents and purposes, will most like cause the tarp to tighten up a bit when loading the hammock), this is handy to know, if you need it in a pinch, i personally don't use this much, as it comes with the disadvantage the tarp will endup being in "storm mode" (as close as it goes to the hammock), and the only way to ellevate it would be re-rigging

    huh, i see what you mean; it didn't occur to me, but I see how that would be true. My only GE currently is a 10ft WBBB original, so the ridgeline is a fixed 101" i think, or something close. Since my shortest ridgeline tarp is an 11' mamba jamba, it seems like, if I'm understanding what you're putting down, that I wouldn't be able to get a decently taut pitch if I tried to attach as close to the hammock as you're describing, because of the difference in ridgeline lengths -- that's still like a 30" difference, or close to it given a little bit of sag from the cat cut at the top, so I can't imagine being able to get any closer than at least 12" from the end of the hammock on each side -- which seemed like a good idea for rain protection at the time that i bought the mamba jamba for the OG WBBB.

    in any case though, i appreciate the tutorial--lots to think about and experiment with. I'm gonna go play with some different kinds of mason line; I found some polyester braided mason line as well as nylon. Maybe I'll put the polyester on the tougher nylon tarps. I'm feeling kinda gunshy about my silpoly now.

  2. #22
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Nov 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlefeet View Post
    hmmm so maybe some braided nylon mason line for a hammock suspension attached CRL?




    huh, i see what you mean; it didn't occur to me, but I see how that would be true. My only GE currently is a 10ft WBBB original, so the ridgeline is a fixed 101" i think, or something close. Since my shortest ridgeline tarp is an 11' mamba jamba, it seems like, if I'm understanding what you're putting down, that I wouldn't be able to get a decently taut pitch if I tried to attach as close to the hammock as you're describing, because of the difference in ridgeline lengths -- that's still like a 30" difference, or close to it given a little bit of sag from the cat cut at the top, so I can't imagine being able to get any closer than at least 12" from the end of the hammock on each side -- which seemed like a good idea for rain protection at the time that i bought the mamba jamba for the OG WBBB.

    in any case though, i appreciate the tutorial--lots to think about and experiment with. I'm gonna go play with some different kinds of mason line; I found some polyester braided mason line as well as nylon. Maybe I'll put the polyester on the tougher nylon tarps. I'm feeling kinda gunshy about my silpoly now.
    How much wind do you anticipate? Anything up to 40 mph I wouldn't worry about too much, but still try to find spots with as much natural wind protection as possible. Best thing is to get out there and try it and see what works. The typical silpoly, silnylon and DCF tarps are a lot more resilient than most of us think.

    There's a fellow on White Blaze who famously reports how he camps out on open balds and gets hammered by high winds. But I have camped in a couple of those places and can tell you that there are frequently plenty of options nearby to relocate to a spot with much better wind protection.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  3. #23
    Senior Member Crazytown3's Avatar
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    May 2016
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    Tooele County, UT, USA
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    My DIY silpoly tarp has survived some pretty monstrous winds. Several times I was sure I would end up with a tattered rag by the end of the night. Other than some dirt and the occasional bird poop, my tarp is no worse off than the day I finished making it.

    I think once you get your tarp out in the wild and enjoy the ways it can help you, your will be pleasantly surprised.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazytown3 View Post
    My DIY silpoly tarp has survived some pretty monstrous winds. Several times I was sure I would end up with a tattered rag by the end of the night. Other than some dirt and the occasional bird poop, my tarp is no worse off than the day I finished making it.

    I think once you get your tarp out in the wild and enjoy the ways it can help you, your will be pleasantly surprised.
    Indeed, just get out and do it. Most fears are misplaced or greatly exaggerated.

    Except in grizzly country.

    Every time I see your location I'm a bit envious. I've done Kings Peak a couple of times and the Highline is #1 on my bucket list. What a great area!
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
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    Placer County CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Indeed, just get out and do it. Most fears are misplaced or greatly exaggerated.

    Except in grizzly country.

    Every time I see your location I'm a bit envious. I've done Kings Peak a couple of times and the Highline is #1 on my bucket list. What a great area!
    thanks for the optimism, folks, i do appreciate it, but I originally started the thread because my silpoly mountainfly already failed in gusty conditions, and has probably just barely survived on other occasions in the past. it's not just a theoretical inquiry. i also live in my hammock in the bush 40-50% of the year, if not more; I've got no fears or hesitations about getting out there or testing my gear - what I've got is plenty of real world experience in my own shortcomings! I'm here trying to learn something from the wonderful hive mind of greater experience that is this forum

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

  6. #26
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlefeet View Post
    thanks for the optimism, folks, i do appreciate it, but I originally started the thread because my silpoly mountainfly already failed in gusty conditions, and has probably just barely survived on other occasions in the past. it's not just a theoretical inquiry. i also live in my hammock in the bush 40-50% of the year, if not more; I've got no fears or hesitations about getting out there or testing my gear - what I've got is plenty of real world experience in my own shortcomings! I'm here trying to learn something from the wonderful hive mind of greater experience that is this forum

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    OK that sounds like a different situation. I assumed it was for backpacking or thru hiking, at most. There are other HF folks who have much more experience with this long-term deployment scenario, such as Low Tech. I am a mere occasional backpacker.

    Are your tarps are exposed to a lot of UV/sunlight? If so, the material will degrade a lot quicker. Pretty good thread about tarps for long-term tarp deployment HERE.

    My impression of most lightweight, and certainly UL, gear is that it is not designed to be lived in for extended periods. More for backpackers/thru-hikers who stow the tarp in the morning, are on the move during the day and then deploy again in the evening.

    It is also true that any material has its limits. Even giant permanent structures eventually give way to the forces of nature, and there's only so much that a simple 20D or 30D tarp can handle. In the example I mentioned above with my DCF tarp in 40-50mph wind, I'm lucky it didn't shred and I really don't think it could have handled that wind much longer. I don't think it would withstand Santa Ana winds for very long.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  7. #27
    Senior Member Crazytown3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlefeet View Post
    thanks for the optimism, folks, i do appreciate it, but I originally started the thread because my silpoly mountainfly already failed in gusty conditions, and has probably just barely survived on other occasions in the past. it's not just a theoretical inquiry. i also live in my hammock in the bush 40-50% of the year, if not more; I've got no fears or hesitations about getting out there or testing my gear - what I've got is plenty of real world experience in my own shortcomings! I'm here trying to learn something from the wonderful hive mind of greater experience that is this forum

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    That does put a different light on it, pun intended. I think you have some unique circumstances that could contribute to the kind of wear and tear that most of us aren't going to see. These tarps are all pretty resilient and durable over short term trips here and there, but I think long term is a whole different thing. I don't have any experience long term like you do, but I certainly wish you well. Be safe out there.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Crazytown3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Indeed, just get out and do it. Most fears are misplaced or greatly exaggerated.

    Except in grizzly country.

    Every time I see your location I'm a bit envious. I've done Kings Peak a couple of times and the Highline is #1 on my bucket list. What a great area!
    Thank you sir! I do love the almost infinite possibilities in this area. Speaking of bucket lists, King's Peak is on my bucket list. The Highline trail and spurs is my all time favorite area anywhere. It's just a magical area. Hope to see you out here someday.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
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    for the record, i don't deploy the silpoly on a semi permanent basis. i use other cheaper and heavier tarps for base camps. the silpoly only gets deployed for 7 days at a time, at the most. And even then, usually not 24/7, but just at night, although occasionally they do go up for shade or rain protection in the daytime

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  10. #30
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    thank you for clarifying your circumstances, this does make a big difference on here. i guess this means i must get off my lazzy *** and really document some of my experiments for public scrutiny (i got you and lowtech now to motivate me). i guess this qualifies as a commitment

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