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  1. #11
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    This is sort of a “More Taste, Less Filling” (an old beer commercial) discussion in the sense that some people prefer a split tarp suspension - separate lines on each side of the tarp - and some prefer a single suspension line that the tarp hangs under - like with Nama Claws or prusiks. If you use a single line, and you pull it tight, all the force of that pull - and any additional force, like tree movement in the wind, accidentally tripping, using part of the line as a clothes line, etc. will all be taken/handled buy the strength of the line. You’ve just strung a strong dynema cord between two trees and you can hang anything from it - like a tarp.

    Now if you use a split line. the middle part of that arrangement is the tarp itself. So in the “circuit” you have the strength of the line, the strength of the tarp and the connectors from the tarp to the line - more parts. And they are all tasked with absorbing any additional force on the line. You can only pull it as tight as the weakest component - though that’s usually tight enough.

    The distance between two points on the hammock straps is not constant. Mine change when I hang a pack/dry bag on those straps and when I get in the hammock. Even if the the distance gets shorter then back to “original”, that a little shock load to the tarp as it is relaxed then pulled taut again.

    I’m not saying you’d shred your tarp. I just like to baby my gear. We have BIG Pondersosa Pines around here. I’m not at all concerned that they are going to move or any part of the trunk where I attach the tarp or hammock will move. I just don’t like the idea of pulling on the tarp itself to get a taut ridgeline and that ridgiine is handy for adding extra weight - like when drying things. The idea of attaching the tarp to the hammock suspension has a lot of merit. It will always be centered on the hammock. One less thing to put up. But the guylines will take just a little more stress - that’s why God invented bungee cord - if those lines move when you get in/out of the hammock.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 09-12-2021 at 14:30.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  2. #12
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    ok, i see where your concern is coming from now, thanks for the explanation.

    here's how i see it (based on both "physics modeling" and significant practical experiments and experience with this setup)

    - normally, you'll setup the tarp with no load in the hammock (or even before the hammock, as that's the logical order if it's raining already). so you will adjust the ridgeline tension in this state, which is with the straps lightly loaded
    - when you load the hammock, and hence the straps, with your weight, depending on the material the straps are made of, they will stretch a bit, which will bring the tarp attachment on the straps a bit farther away from the tree, so ever so slightly reducing the pull on the ridgeline (but it's almost unnoticeable in my experience, even with nylon straps). when you unload the hammock as you get out, it will come back to where you initially set it. so the range of load is limited by your initial choice of tension, and because it is elastic elongation, it's somewhat smooth anyway (not shock load).

    - on the other hand, because you are attaching the tarp as high as the hammock suspension on the tree, you'll get roughly the same 30degree angle when the tarp is brought low in "storm mode", which means the tension in the ridgeline necessary to support the tarp along with the pull from the corner guylines is much less than if the ridgeline was "flat". this is especially true in case of dyneema, and especially important in windy conditions, but not only. i did some (extremely boring and tedious) calculations in another thread to show how much stretch contributes to the ability of the ridgeline to support "vertical" loads, and why dyneema is in this respect at a huge disadvantage, despite its incredible tensile strength. we're talking regularly a factor of 5, mybe even a factor of 10 in extreme configurations and using a dyneema ridgeline, so nothing to sniff at.

    in other words, attaching at the height of the hammock suspension treestraps will allow for much less tension in the ridgeline for the same job, and will also provide much better storm-proofness. attaching to the actual treestraps will add the benefit of not having to go around the tree (again), and getting the full protection for the tree, that the straps provide. this also means you will be much safer this way when using a split ridgeline (for the reasons cougarmeat outlined)

    hang it high, pull it low, use the treestraps if they are there. (hmm. signature idea maybe? :P )
    Last edited by nanok; 09-12-2021 at 14:14. Reason: raininining is like really raining

  3. #13
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    Nanok - yeah, that’s it. Sort of part thought experiment, part actual experience. I wonder if there would be a market for an “Environmental Room” franchise. You know they have these “escape room” party activities where the group enters a pre-set room and has to find clues to get out - just a case of a special room. The environmental room would another kind of specialized room you could rent by the hour. You could bring your gear and set it up. With panel controls, you could dial in wind/rain/sun and see how your gear holds up. You could dial in “Down Pour” and practice setting up in the rain; see how your choreography plays out. Try setting up your tarp - without skins - in 20 mph wind. That's another feature of attaching the tarp to the hammock suspension straps - the ridgeline will already be up.

    I’ve seen “environmental pods” people can add to their homes. It’s on the same idea, has infrared heat lamps, piped in music, humidity controls and such. My “Gear Room” is the same idea on a larger scale.

    There may be a market for a larger diameter skin - one to hold both tarp and hammock (my Bliss SunShields would probably work). that way, you could set the suspension on the tree and expose the tarp/hammock a bit at time, guying the tarp as you go.

    The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of the tarp always centered on the hammock. I imagine taking the gear to the park, setting up the hammock for the best angle and head/foot elevation. Then attaching the tarp to the suspicion line (either via single line or split) for the desired height and angle (tarps don’t have to be horizontal). Then pull a skin over the whole thing and next deployment would be easy-peasy.

    That works for one set of gear. However, I’m always switching out tarps/hammock/quilts depending upon where I’m going. But it is certainly worth experimentation.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 09-12-2021 at 14:54.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  4. #14
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    i like your idea a lot. in fact, i know there's at least one tent manufacturer who brags about testing their tents in a wind tunnel (can't recall if it was skurka's sierra designs or some others, i ran across some videos on youtube, pretty cool to see in any case).

    a wind tunnel/room would go a long way, unfortunately producing wind of significant speeds at that scale is not cheap at all. adding rain, (snow, hale, thunder and lightning too? ) would make it even more expensive. but perhaps the technology is getting better and the costs of such things don't need to be so high in the near future? would be great to have access to such thing for sure.

    in the meantime, thought experiments and praying for rain and storms (while trying not to look too excited when you're in the office and it starts raining, as people might think you're nuts -- "but, you come to the office by bicycle, no?" "yes! it's great" arrggh)

    the one sleeve idea is interesting, i thought about it too, but i discarded it (for now) because of some small inconviniences: 1. especially when packing after rain, i'd like the tarp to be separate from the hammock 2. when setting up, especially in the rain, i'd like the tarp to be fully deployed before the hammock ever sees the lightning flashes and a (distant) 3. i'd like to be able to setup the tarp without the hammock if i just need some quick shelter, but don't plan to camp there, but this ones kind of a small niggle.

    for addressing 1 and 2, perhaps a "twin snakeskin", where the tarp not only has it's own "room", but also can be separately unzipped free or such, without having to expose the hammock, might work well enough. but i guess then we're getting into integrated hammock shelters. like you, i prefer the modularity of the hammock setup, it's an important part of enjoying it for me it seems, as in yeah, i want it easy and fast, but if it crosses the line into "snap fingers, you now have a full shelter magically materialized between your treestraps" it's kind of "meh, ok, whatever". i guess i'm old school (or just a tinkerer?)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    ...

    hang it high, pull it low, use the treestraps if they are there. (hmm. signature idea maybe? :P )
    Only if you can make it rhyme...

  6. #16
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    nanok, Now see, because this is a only “thought” experiment, you’ll miss the opportunity to see an embarrassed cougarmeat discover the issue of “one sleeve” holding both a wet thing (tarp) and a dry thing (hammock) which would soon result in two wet things. But, as you mentioned, there is the twin sleeves or sleeve just for the tarp and stuff sack (double ended) for them both together.

    I live in high desert so rain is mostly something I read about. Then I travel to places where I can paddle a kayak and liquid stuff drops out of the sky; amazing! In the winter, we have precipitation, but it’s white and fluffy. At those times, I run the ridgeline under that tarp for more support against snow build up or a clump dropping from a branch. Sure, they might be a little more rubbing, but if did occur it would be slight and less than five times a year. That is, I don’t run the line under automatically after Nov 11th; snow has to actually happen.

    Back to the Tarp/Hammock shared suspension support idea. It’s worth playing with but I have too much Mix-N-Match going on. And it’s fun to just tinker.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazotster View Post
    I'm asking because I've been using the dutchware spliced split ridgeline. It's a little short if I run it around the trees in my backyard, but fine if i just run the tarp line through the hammock tree straps without going around the trees. Is this a bad idea?

    Is there a reason not to run the tarp line just through the tree strap without going all the way around the tree?
    Could you simply use longer cord for the tarp ridgeline?
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  8. #18
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    But cmoulder, that would weigh more
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    But cmoulder, that would weigh more
    Lol, well ultimately UL is about want vs need, and this is sounding more like a need. I don't hesitate to carry more cordage or modify things if necessary.

    Admittedly I don't know anything about the Dutch split ridgeline except what I've seen here, but it doesn't appear to require rocket surgery to tie in some cord extensions.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    nanok, Now see, because this is a only “thought” experiment, you’ll miss the opportunity to see an embarrassed cougarmeat discover the issue of “one sleeve” holding both a wet thing (tarp) and a dry thing (hammock) which would soon result in two wet things. But, as you mentioned, there is the twin sleeves or sleeve just for the tarp and stuff sack (double ended) for them both together.
    yeah, i do thought experiments a lot. i mean, a lot, to the point that by the time i go out and test a new idea/design it basically works perfectly, or confirms what i already thought i had to address. saves lots of time and materials, and also quite a bit of embarassement. maybe also spoils the fun a bit, i don't know (the embarassement of discovery is a wonderful thing, as long as it's in small doses, and nobody gets hurt)

    I live in high desert so rain is mostly something I read about. Then I travel to places where I can paddle a kayak and liquid stuff drops out of the sky; amazing! In the winter, we have precipitation, but it’s white and fluffy. At those times, I run the ridgeline under that tarp for more support against snow build up or a clump dropping from a branch. Sure, they might be a little more rubbing, but if did occur it would be slight and less than five times a year. That is, I don’t run the line under automatically after Nov 11th; snow has to actually happen.
    it must be quite something to experience all of these things in turn. i never really experienced anything close to desert climate. perhaps some day...

    Back to the Tarp/Hammock shared suspension support idea. It’s worth playing with but I have too much Mix-N-Match going on. And it’s fun to just tinker.
    in the sense of "integrated pre-rigged shelter solution", i agree as i said. in the sense of sharing the attachement point (tree straps) only, this is what i use and would argue is the best way to do things (TM), and i do mix and match and otherwise stir it quite a bit in my experiments, if anything, this kind of setup actually allows for even more mix and matching, because the attachement point to the tree is now a modular component of the system, instead of a dedicated one only used for the hammock, so now it's much easier to bring along any kind of tarp ridgeline solution you can imagine, without having to worry about the peculiarities of attaching to a tree (as you already solved that with the tree straps). in other words, each simple tool focused on solving a specific need (attachment point to the tree in this example) becomes a modular, reusable component, unix style

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