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Thread: DCF Underquilt?

  1. #1
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    DCF Underquilt?

    Long time learner/lurker, first time poster! I had an idea and was wondering if it makes any sense to all of you much more experienced hangers.
    I am in the process of building up my hammock gear while also lowering my base weight (I currently have a Dream Darien in 1.6HyperD, a DCF hex tarp and an incoming Loco Libre operator habanero 50 degree UQ). I realize eventually I can lighten my hammock but I this was my first and so I wanted to make sure it worked for me before going as light as possible! Anyway, this post is aimed more at insulation. My UQ will be good for the summer months here in northern New England but I realize that I will need something warmer for shoulder seasons. I am contemplating the temp rating for my future early/late shoulder season underquilt and am also hoping to make my system as adaptable to variable conditions as possible. I have read here that underquilt protectors give around a 10 degree boost to an underquilt’s rating. If this is true, wouldn’t it make sense to have a super light DCF UQP, light weight DCF could probably get a UQP at a weight of 3-ish oz (this is an estimate, correct me if I’m wrong). That is about the weight difference, if not less, than adding 10 degrees of warmth to an underquilt. So you could theoretically own just two UQs but have a much wider temperature range to mix and match with the UQP depending on conditions. For example, I could get my 50 degree UQ down to 40 degrees if conditions required, with only the 3 oz penalty of the UPQ. Same logic for a 30 degree quilt down to 20 degrees. Buying a UQP, even made with dyneema, would still be a heck of a lot cheaper than a whole new underquilt.

    So my question is, would this make sense in practice? And if so, why doesn’t anyone make a DCF UQP??

  2. #2
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    DCF does not breath as it is waterproof. Could create a vapor barrier between you and the hammock and could/will cause condensation. The down is not able to pass moisture out of the DCF.
    That is a few points.
    Shug

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  3. #3
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Recent related discussion here.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  4. #4
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    Welcome to the forums!

    Always good to be thinking outside the box, and exploring ideas. While I'm sure there might be other reasons, and perhaps others could go into more detail, in my mind there's a few main reasons why this isn't something more common.

    1.) Cost

    An UQP is essentially another hammock, that you hang loosely under your actual hammock to cover it and your under quilt. So in order to make an UQP from DCF you'd need around 4 yards, which would put you at over $125 just in material costs. I'd wager that after the price of labor and other misc. stuff is added in, you'd be starting to edge towards the $200 mark for that piece of gear if made and offered by a vendor.

    2.) Breathability

    The UQP covers your hammock and quilt, and if it is made of a non-breathable material, would trap moisture coming off your body - which would normally pass through the breathable hammock and quilt - resulting in an increased risk of wet insulation, or at the very least a puddle collecting in the UQP. Some people do get UQP made of silnylon (after all the most basic point of an UQP is to protect the quilt from splashing rain, etc.) but as far as I know most folks opt for a breathable UQP, as you're not really looking for complete water protection but rather a little extra splash insurance, so breathable fabric works just fine. Might not be as much of an issue in warmer weather, but as temps get colder, the chance for that condensation to collect, and possibly even freeze, increases. I'd wager the risk of that being a problem with DCF would be high.

    3.) It's Not An Exact Science

    While it's tempting to want to quantify things in a specific way, i.e "an UQP adds roughy 10 degrees of warmth", I don't think that it's in any way that exact, or guaranteed, or one size fits all.

    Most quilt makers use conservative temp ratings for their quilts, meaning that a 40 degree quilt should keep *most* users comfortable down to that temp, but it's possible that you can stay warm even colder, or that some folks who sleep cold might not even be able to get to the temps listed - everyone's a little different after all. The movement of air sucks heat away from the quilt from the underside, and adding an UQP adds an extra layer between the outside air and the quilt and helps to mitigate that. So it's likely that it might not *add* to the quilt rating, but rather assist the quilt in actually functioning as intended. Non breathable UQPs would act as a vapor barrier, which could in fact increase the effectiveness by holding in more heat, but the trade off is trapping condensation as mentioned above, which could impact the insulation's ability to fully loft and decrease effectiveness - setting up a potential situation of diminishing returns.
    Essentially I think there are too may variables and possibilities to be able to make a definitive, quantitative statement about whether an UQP adds X or Y degrees to the bottom limit of your quilts, making it difficult to evaluate whether it makes sense - as you've suggested above - in a cost/weight comparison vs getting a lower rated UQ, etc.


    All of that said, there's nothing stopping you from doing your own experimenting, and trying it out to see whether it works for you. Though you might consider getting (or making) a silnylon UQP before dropping the money to make a DCF version, which while not as light as you're ultimately looking for, would allow you to test wether it provides you with the ability to stretch your quilt temp ratings lower than listed. If you do eventually try it out, be sure to let everyone know what you find.

    Good luck!

  5. #5
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    Thanks all! DCF being a moisture barrier is something that I didn't even think of!
    Shug, you were an inspiration for me when making the switch to hanging. Thanks for all of your work!
    cmoulder, I've learned from many of your posts, particularly around getting lighter. Thanks for the help!
    silentorpheus, that makes a lot of sense that the UQP would help the quilt better achieve its temp rating.

    This leads to the decision making heart of the question: I guess the real issue I am trying to avoid is on 40* nights. This is probably why some folks end up with many quilts. If I only want to own 2 UQs, can I avoid carrying a potentially half pound (or more) heavier 20* UQ on those nights that are just out of my other 50* UQ's range? What do you all do in these situations? I was hoping the UQP may be the solution but maybe I need to look at other solutions. Do you just bring the colder quilt and grunt the extra weight? Or pack more down clothing to sleep with? Or could you mix the 50* UQ with a 40 or 30* TQ to make the difference?

  6. #6
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    I often carry a 20º UQ other than mid-simmer.
    You can vent it.
    Shug

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    FLTurtle's Avatar
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    Most of these cottage vendors comfort rate their gear, so you could probably push it into the 40s. I mean, I've got a 40F HG Phoenix and I pushed it into the upper 30s. My feet got a little cold (forgot my sit pad) using a 40F Burrow, but otherwise I was fine. Living in Florida, I could probably get by with a 50F (except summer, heck no, I ain't camping in the summer here)...but it does dip into the 30s and 20s for a short while. Honestly, if HG offered 50F rated quilts when I bought, I probably would've gotten those over the 40F.

    I have 20F Burrow/Phoenix/Incubator and 40F Burrow/Phoenix sets. Backpacking, it will be the appropriate temp rated Burrow/Phoenix combo. Island or car camping, I'll swap out the Phoenix for the Incubator.

    Like SilentOrpheus touched on, I wouldn't bet on the "UQP gives you an extra 10 degrees". I think the benefit is for those windy days where the built up warmth can blown out by a wind gust. There's another recent post about using a skimpy tarp with a UQP vs. a bigger tarp. I think most folks would recommend the bigger tarp.

  8. #8
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    This may give more insight.....

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainer View Post
    This leads to the decision making heart of the question: I guess the real issue I am trying to avoid is on 40* nights. This is probably why some folks end up with many quilts. If I only want to own 2 UQs, can I avoid carrying a potentially half pound (or more) heavier 20* UQ on those nights that are just out of my other 50* UQ's range? What do you all do in these situations? I was hoping the UQP may be the solution but maybe I need to look at other solutions. Do you just bring the colder quilt and grunt the extra weight? Or pack more down clothing to sleep with? Or could you mix the 50* UQ with a 40 or 30* TQ to make the difference?
    As Shug said, you can vent your UQ when necessary. My first quilt set was an HG 20* Phoenix and Burrow. I used it year-round for about three years. I'm just not a hot sleeper and venting is easy. Eventually, I found that the 20* quilts weren't able to keep me warm in temps lower than 20 degrees, so I bought an HG 0* Burrow and Incubator. Finally, several years later I bought an HG 40* Phoenix and Burrow.

    I never had any luck supplementing my quilts with clothing. There's too much compression on your underside, in my opinion, for clothing to work as insulation. The most miserable night I had in a hammock was trying to make 20* quilts work in 10* weather. I brought plenty of extra clothing but it really wasn't up to the task of keeping me warm.

    If you only want two sets of quilts, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Sometimes you'll have to stack your quilts when it's cold, which will definitely impact backpacking weight. Other times you'll just have to carry heavier quilts than you'd like. When all I had was 20* quilts, I'd sometimes just take a cotton sheet or fleece blanket as topquilt when it was really hot.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #10
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    If you wanted to experiment you could make one out of polycro (the 3m window stuff.). It is light like DCF but not as strong, but an underquilt protector isn’t about strength, it is about blocking the wind.

    However the lack of breathability is a problem. I tried making an underquilt protector out of silnylon and found a couple tablespoons of water in it in by morning.

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