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  1. #11
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    I included pictures of my Pea Pod in use. I probably should also include pictures of the HT90. In this 1st picture, I can't remember for certain, but I think this is using ONLY a Greylock 4 as an IQ(InnerQuilt). I think this is without a pad added because it looks a bit short. But you can see the loft of the GL4 is enough to push up into the bottom layer of the hammock, guaranteeing contact with the back, with no suspension needed. I have gotten similar results with 20 to 30ºF rated TQs or sleeping bags using double layer. IOW, top layer plus bottom layer = more loft. In this pic, please notice the bottom layer,which accommodates a 25" wide pad. Then notice the extra width to the sides beyond the 25" bottom surface. There is a remarkable amount of shoulder room in this hammock, accomplished without any wide spreader bars needed.

    ......................................
    This one is definitely without pad, just the GL4, I can tell by the more narrow V shape once body weight is added. Still, plenty of width and warmth:


    ..................................................
    This picture is with a 2.5" thick pad(not quite thick enough for this pad pocket) with an added 25F TQ on top to fill in the pad baffle/Valleys and assure good contact despite my back not being in solid contact with the pad. This much quilt is over kill for this purpose, a much lighter quilt could be used. Or, I have used clothing.

    ...........................
    The view from inside the hammock:

    ..................................................
    This is how it looks with the 2.5" thick, 25" wide NeoAir All Season pad inserted down below in the pad pocket. You can see that now it is even wider than the previous picture without a pad.

    ...........................................

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    JustBill: "I'm also still unclear what it proposes to do that a (good) bridge hammock cannot do better.
    The Amok offers the 'lounge mode' and having a portable lazy boy chair is a feature I can appreciate... if you simply want an ultralight floating cot... well I know a fella who makes bridges that don't require a pad and weigh less than a HT90. The underlying premise was SUPER ULTRA LIGHT... if you are no longer solving this problem then what is the purpose of the product."

    Bill, I have not had the pleasure of trying a Big Guy Bridge, so you might be correct. But I am very experienced with all JRB bridges as well as the WBRR. They are among my fav hammocks. So, while your hammock may solve all issues, here are the differences I see comfort wise between the HT90(my earlier model is rated 220 lbs) and any of my bridge hammocks(and I think there are some others who would say the same):
    1: Vast shoulder room, with or without a pad.
    2: Vast shoulder room but without spreader bars.
    3: Superior side comfort and room, particularly for fetal. My bridges are(for me) among the best hammocks in that regard(except maybe for knee room in fetal), but the HT90 is even better, as well as being better than any of my GEs in that regard.
    4: A very thick pad, if used, has no negative influence on center of gravity, as it hangs below the hammock in the deep pad pocket.
    5: If a quilt(InnerQuilt, IQ) is added to the pad, or used by itself, there is no danger of it becoming poorly adjusted, or a gap or draft developing, as I move around in the night. No risk of a quilt suspension being influenced by temps or age. It is not going to sink any lower than the support of the about 3" deep pad pocket will allow it. I added Kam Snaps to the pad pocket and one of my quilts to make it easier to keep the IQ spread wide to the sides. Others simply wrap a quilt around a pad, as is sometimes done with a TQ on the ground. It stays put, and gaps do not develop for me, so far.
    6: a thick, short pad can be used, with clothing or quilt in the pad pocket for legs and feet.

    That is all I can think of right now. There are also cons, and sometimes I prefer my bridge or GEs in some ways. But even though I very much like my bridge hammocks, these are some possible advantages I see with the HT90 compared to them.
    Thanks BillyBob- been too long since I looked at the HT90 and your comments and photos helped refresh my memory and turn the lightbulb back on.

    I think it's safe to say that you sill prefer bridges, lol. I had forgotten that the HT90 is a bridge, just a different type.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-stayed_bridge

    What you're used to is a suspension bridge. (JRB, RR)
    The REI thingy we've discussed was a truss bridge, and the HT90 is a Cable Stayed bridge.

    I'm sure an engineer or two might take some umbrage with that but this carpenter has no big issue with the general idea as the rough structure plays out well enough.
    They are hammocks after all, not actual bridges... but the basics are close enough in my book.

    With that general idea in place:
    That does explain (to me at least) why you enjoy the HT90 so much.
    I was also under the false assumption that the pad was part of the structure because of it's use in the Amok, but I can see that is not the case once I looked again. The fact it has a pad sleeve is a bonus, not a requirement. Thinking on it more from a design perspective... I'm surprised that feature was added given the ultralight minded approach to the design. But perhaps it was just a solution to provide a way to insulate it without a custom underquilt being needed.

    For pad use... other than skidding around a bit you could just toss the pad on top of the bridge. Maybe I'm underestimating how much of a pain that is? But assuming you could just toss the pad on top and still climb in easily it would resolve the pad thickness problem. I had a similar issue with my bridges when I tried doing an 'add a sleeve' type solution that would suspend the pad underneath. The main issue for me was that the pad wants to flatten out and push away; creating cold spots. By using an adjustable ridgeline I was able to counteract the center of gravity (tippy) issues the other bridges can have when you just plop the pad inside. Because you're entering from the side and the suspension runs along the side... controlling the pad and staying on it is pretty manageable.

    The problem (for me at least) with the HT90 style of bridge is the 'end entry'. But once you get past that you've done a good job summing up the advantages.
    It also (basically) prevents you from using a standard under quilt but the integrated sleeve address that.

    Looks like it 'hangs pretty high' on the tree, but I'm not one to get too hung up on that. I've seen some gathered end users struggle with that too. Bridges are generally slung fairly low and rarely run into that problem but since the HT90 and amok literally come at the problem from a different angle I'd chalk it up more to 'it is what it is' rather than any real negative. Generally speaking... unless you are fairly short (and likely happy with a GE anyway) this is a non issue.

    About all I'll add;
    The "suspension" part of the more common bridges does allow side entry, but then you have to deal with this structural component running along the edge.
    Rolled webbing edged bridges carry a common complaint regarding the 'edge bite' as a result. It makes them less than comfortable to lounge in, can catch your funny bone, and to your point they tend to really get annoying when your knees rest on the edge.

    But with that problem in mind...
    Doing recessed bars can increase the effective (usable) width of a given spreader bar. IE- you get more room without using a large spreader bar.
    So my Happy Medium bridge with 36" spreader bars is wider with less squeeze than the similarly equipped BMBH and produces an effective shoulder width at least equal or better to the wider RR spreader without requiring a narrower foot end to balance things out. I wouldn't say it's impossible to run afoul of the edge on your side, but it is much less likely.

    To solve any nagging space issues: You just go bigger so The Big Guy/Luxury is 20% wider in the head end. Or if you want to think of it as a fetal sleeper... you can reverse your head position and use the wide end of the bridge to fully accommodate your knees.

    Using amsteel in channel edges as opposed to rolled webbing also helps make the bridge more dynamic in that it adjusts better to your body position... or performs a bit more like an actual suspension bridge in that the primary suspension 'cable' is free to move.

    On the SUL side:
    I've got a few bridges that break 10 ounces (including carbon fiber spreader bars).
    Less if you use trekking poles, but these don't have a net, so toss back in some ounces for that if it's critical or getting closer apples to apples numbers vs the 14 ounce listed weight of the HT90 2.0.

    So the HT90 is still quite competitive vs the latest and greatest I've got, if not still better on the scale.
    The Happy Medium is 17 ounces, with the lower weight rated UL version coming in around 13 ounces.

    On the heavy side:
    The Big Guy Bridge is the one that goes 250- 350+ pound user weights at about 2lbs 4 ounces all in. Out of the UL discussion I suppose, but quite lighter than the AMOK even if you add in the bugnet.

    For those under 250 pounds you can go with the Luxury Bridge which is the same size bed, but lighter structurally.
    If you're 225 or under you can go with a Carbon Fiber pole upgrade to get you into 21 ounces or less.

    So to your earlier 250-400lb load you mentioned...
    You're looking at double layer or heavy rated fabric Gathered ends.
    The Amok (or XL version really)
    The Big Guy Bridge

    While the Big Guy isn't SUL, it is still designed for backpacking or at the very least packing into a boat, motorcycle, etc. Falls in between the GE and the Amok basically.

    Bottom line- as someone who struggles with production issues and have discussed 'cross production' with other vendors before and tried to work with them...
    The biggest issue we have is our specialization. Very few of us are professional sewn goods manufacturers. We are basically production DIY/MYOG folks who got good at building the thing we got good building. In much the same way being a carpenter doesn't make me a plumber just because I'm "in the trades". Yar we all make hammocks but being a rough framing carpenter doesn't make you great at installing crown molding or visa-versa.

    Professional sewn goods manufacturing is all about reducing costs, smoothing things out, eliminating specialization, and making money. Most cottage gear is your simple square peg in a round hole. If you want to sell round pegs... no problems. If not... you're on your own. The HT90 is a hexagon peg and I'm surprised it got as far with exped as it did but credit where credit is due as I think Exped is a pretty adventurous company overall.

    That story seems to play out for Luke...
    Came up with a product, tried to get it to go with Exped... and then had to bring it back 'in house'.
    So at that point either Luke or his customers need to be so passionate about the design that they keep it going or... it gets let go.
    I've got a few things on my end I just sorta do because they help folks, but if it was what I was doing for a primary source of income probably wouldn't last long.
    Yar there's always a few hardcore products that run double the price they should to keep them around, but that's rare.

    Cool or not... to create some kind of volume you need to address the design flaws that prevent the design from catching on AND you need to solve the production problems.

    Gathered ends are pretty good at that since they are relatively straight forward to integrate into sewn goods production methods. If you don't vary from the ENO type formula they can roll right off the line and into ali-baba and amazon carts around the world.

    Quilts/Tarps are darn near perfect with minimal specialization.
    Something like a bridge... much less so.
    Something like that HT90... again looks like a nightmare.


    PS- I'll stay away from the pod. Other than to say thanks for the clarifications. I muddled a few things together there that were unfair and I think you fairly clarified them. If anyone was in a position to do something there I'd nominate AHE as a synthetic pod seems more practical in my not so humble opinion.

  3. #13
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Thanks BillyBob- been too long since I looked at the HT90 and your comments and photos helped refresh my memory and turn the lightbulb back on.

    I think it's safe to say that you sill prefer bridges, lol. I had forgotten that the HT90 is a bridge, just a different type.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-stayed_bridge

    What you're used to is a suspension bridge. (JRB, RR)
    The REI thingy we've discussed was a truss bridge, and the HT90 is a Cable Stayed bridge.

    I'm sure an engineer or two might take some umbrage with that but this carpenter has no big issue with the general idea as the rough structure plays out well enough.
    They are hammocks after all, not actual bridges... but the basics are close enough in my book.
    Holy Moly! I never thought of that, it IS a bridge, isn’t it? In place of the spreader bars are the multiple cords head to foot on each side that keep it spread(left to right) apart. It’s just a bridge hung 90º to the ridge line/tree line. No wonder I like it so much. It still has spreaders, just not bars. Well, dang, thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious to me all along, you would think.




    Just Bill:
    For pad use... other than skidding around a bit you could just toss the pad on top of the bridge. Maybe I'm underestimating how much of a pain that is? But assuming you could just toss the pad on top and still climb in easily it would resolve the pad thickness problem. I had a similar issue with my bridges when I tried doing an 'add a sleeve' type solution that would suspend the pad underneath. The main issue for me was that the pad wants to flatten out and push away; creating cold spots. By using an adjustable ridgeline I was able to counteract the center of gravity (tippy) issues the other bridges can have when you just plop the pad inside. Because you're entering from the side and the suspension runs along the side... controlling the pad and staying on it is pretty manageable.
    And indeed I have done just that! And it DOES solve the pad thickness problem(though usually I have solved it by putting either clothing not needed for sleeping or the lightests quilt I can find on top of the pad INSIDE the pad pocket, works amazingly well). Admittedly the pad is easier to use if it is zipped in down in the pad pocket, but it is quite doable inside the hammock. As is the JRB James River single layer. Which is a bit deeper than the WBRR. I think I have done that with the WBRR as well, stays in place, but with the thicker pads I was a bit nervous about rolling out of there.
    James River single layer with NeoAir All Season 2.5” thick pad:






    I don’t seem to have any pics of doing that with the HT90, though I have, but on this day I was playing around with my old Speer SPE sleeve and closed cell foam pads in both the HT90 as well as the James River bridge. If memory serves, worked just fine in both. I’m certain I have done the same with my NeoAir, but can’t find pics.
    CCF pads/SPE in HT90:



    (next pic of leg area CCF/SPE/HT90, the dark/blue thing to the upper left is my TQ hanging outside over the RL of the HT90:


    Same day/place but with the CCF/SPE in the James River, which as well as the NeoAir, stays in place without problems(but is a bit high with the NeoAir)


    Just Bill:
    The problem (for me at least) with the HT90 style of bridge is the 'end entry'. But once you get past that you've done a good job summing up the advantages.
    It also (basically) prevents you from using a standard under quilt but the integrated sleeve address that.

    Looks like it 'hangs pretty high' on the tree, but I'm not one to get too hung up on that. I've seen some gathered end users struggle with that too. Bridges are generally slung fairly low and rarely run into that problem but since the HT90 and amok literally come at the problem from a different angle I'd chalk it up more to 'it is what it is' rather than any real negative. Generally speaking... unless you are fairly short (and likely happy with a GE anyway) this is a non issue. ......................

    About all I'll add;
    The "suspension" part of the more common bridges does allow side entry, but then you have to deal with this structural component running along the edge.
    Rolled webbing edged bridges carry a common complaint regarding the 'edge bite' as a result.
    The end entry is a bit of a pain, particularly when getting used to it. AND It DOES hang high on the tree! Also a bit of a pain. Helping make up for that is the fact that I have been able to hang from trees as close as 7 ft apart. Obviously, having closer trees, like say 7-10 ft, is going to bring the hang on the tree spot down a bit. But of course, in the field, the limit on minimal tree spacing is going to be the tarp. No rolled edge bite complaints on this one, but partly because I can't sit in that direction anyway because of the suspension cords. It has made a surprisingly good chair sitting out of the entry area with no pad, and even with the NeoAir pad which I fold up under my legs, which I also do when getting in. But I have wondered if that is hard on the pad? So far no problems. Also, I have had some issues sometimes with my knees and that edge bite in fetal with some bridges. But no sign of that here, pad or no pad. My knees are never near the edge, usually still on the pad. Then again, the same pad in a bridge would also probably solve that problem.

    I'm not going to quote and comment on the rest of your post, but I have read it and thanks for your thoughts and the useful info.

  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    ...............................................

    PS- I'll stay away from the pod. Other than to say thanks for the clarifications. I muddled a few things together there that were unfair and I think you fairly clarified them. If anyone was in a position to do something there I'd nominate AHE as a synthetic pod seems more practical in my not so humble opinion.
    Yes! A (probably rated for only summer/fall by itself) synthetic pod, say 40-50F, with a wind resistant but breathable shell, like some UQPs. Which will extend the insulation of, and increase draft proofing for, the down UQs/TQs which are inside the pod! What is that trick for increasing resistance to loft loss of down quilts while also extending their range? Layer a synthetic quilt for the outer layer. Less susceptible to, and blocking inner down quilt from, outside moisture, rain/snow or fog. And most important for those longer trips: moving the dew point outside out the down into the quick drying synthetic OUTER layer.

    Let the relatively thin and not so warm outer synthetic pod(tapered on the ends) serve to block drafts just like a sleeping bag, while also acting some what like an UQP. And while gladly accepting any vapor from the sleeper which wants to condense when contacting that cold outer layer. Keeping the inside down drier(dryer?). For the bulk of the warmth, just as Shug does in his DIY pod videos at minus 40F, add the bulk of the insulation, as needed, INSIDE the outer pod.

    Here is what I am thinking relative to the dozens of threads I have seen over the years, where some one is cold at 40F in their expensive highest quality 20F down quilts(usually due to user error, which sooner or later they USUALLY get worked out or mostly worked out): Just as some think that an UQP might help somewhat in those cases(even if wind is NOT the problem), I'm betting that those same folks, with synthetic(or down for that matter) 40-50F rated pods wrapped around those quilts(TQ and UQ) from head of hammock to foot, would now be toasty at 20F, or maybe even 10F or lower. While also moving the dew point to the outer(synthetic?) layers. Any one want to put this to the test? And AHE would be a great company to come up with such a design. In fact, I think it would even work great in many conditions using ONLY a Yeti length UQ down below, inside the pod.

  5. #15
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    I don't know if anyone can truly appreciate the HT90 without living with one. Comfort, Yes. It's great, but it's the whole package, and that could be the rub, and where it's different from an Amok. Although, with their UL version, we might be getting closer.

    There is something about a hammock and suspension that fits in the palm of your hand, that is more comfortable than everything else you've tried that is very appealing. Add to that the fact that you can string it up between any set of trees from 7-20' apart. It really is unbeatable. I was on a moto trip last week with my gathered end. I pulled into an empty campground with tons of trees, but they had them spaced oddly around the perimeter of all the sites. They were either too far from each other, or too close. I found a spot, but after I got set up, went for a walk specifically to count how many of those challenging sites I could've set up the HT90. Virtually every single one of them, since all I need (with lukes tarp) is 7ft between trees. That's valuable to me, and a massive selling point. I need 2 hammocks in my life. It seriously has me considering getting rid of the GE hammocks and getting an Amok. The short distance required is seriously under-rated.

    It's the tarp that has me continuing to try other systems. The pipe dream for me would be a tarp that protects on the sides, but extends on the foot end 8 or 10 ft to create a massive porch. Bouncing off the tarp to get in kinda blows imho.

  6. #16
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    Isn't this very close to the Speer Pea Pod? Found on Amazon.

    Hyke & Byke Antero 15 Degree F 800 Fill Power Hammock Compatible Hydrophobic Goose Down Sleeping Bag with ClusterLoft Base – Innovative Design for Hammock, Ground Camping or Backpacking

  7. #17
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeG77 View Post
    Isn't this very close to the Speer Pea Pod? Found on Amazon.

    Hyke & Byke Antero 15 Degree F 800 Fill Power Hammock Compatible Hydrophobic Goose Down Sleeping Bag with ClusterLoft Base – Innovative Design for Hammock, Ground Camping or Backpacking
    Has potential. The Pea Pod was 9 ft long by 6 ft wide ( Polar Pod was longer and wider), this is (size large) 7.25 ft long(87") but at least it is 72" wide. The Pea Pod would close over the ends of the shorter hammocks, and almost on the 10 ft hammocks. This one will not go quite as far for end coverage, and might not have as much room in the knees, based on reviews. Also, there were a few complaints about zippers snagging in the reviews, which reminded me that I loved the full length Velcro on the Speer Pea Pod. Very rapid opening and closing, plus venting is almost infinite. Still, it has real potential, thanks for the find!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 07-08-2021 at 22:22.

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