Cord on Cord Damage

[TheWalkman]

I see a lot of interest in the becket rig and other hangs that have eliminated much of the metal hardware.

My question: compared to nylon, is Dyneema (or UHDPE, generally) immune from rope-on-rope interaction and less prone to damage?

Back in the day, when I caved and climbed a bit, direct, rope-on-rope interaction was a major, No No. It could chafe or even melt the rope so one ALWAYS used hardware between ropes (other than knots.)

From the Petzl website:
97A68170-5D50-4FD1-9635-72ABB401E6DE.jpeg

(Obviously, you don’t want sharp rope bends with a piton, metal hanger, etc.)

Granted, comparing a climbing rope, with dynamic, potentially life saving (ending) loading is a bit different compared to a relatively static, hammock hang three feet off the ground, but no rope on rope rubbing was a fundamental lesson one learned.

Are the basic characteristics of Dyneema such that it is relatively immune from chafing and abrasion or are we assuming that a hang is a non life threatening application (assuming a knot’s position moves around from hang to hang, and a user will inspect and replace a soft shackle or webbing before they go thump) gives hangers license to just ignore that old rule?

On a side note, I’ve been hanging for probably fifteen + years and hadn’t visited the forum in several years. It’s interesting to see how the rigging systems keep evolving. I started with a Hennessy, evolved to a Blackbird, got a bridge (which I really didnt like) and tried a number of rigging methods - ring buckles, webbing, whoopies, etc. finally settling on a Dutch Buckle, clip and webbing.

I’m considering giving the becket a try for the fun of it, though my current suspension works well.

Cheers

[Geocodyrgia]

This is the primary reason I use descender rings on my tree strap and a ucr on the adjusting end of my setup connecting to carabiners on the hammock ends. Even then, I've seen wear on the ucr constrictor with amsteel.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Phantom Grappler]

Yes, there can be damage, rope on rope, rope on strap. Damage can happen when there is loaded movement of one line sliding against another as hammock settles into place.
Damage can even occur as a single strand slides against itself as its knot tightens, as hammock is being loaded with body weight.

In my early days, I had at least one rig that used a 1/8” amsteel continuous loop, tied in a prusik around a sturdy strap. It held great.
But there was a shiny look to amsteel and strap from some movement as I got in my hammock.

Once I forgot to hand tighten prusik before getting in hammock. During the night I was slowly lowered almost to ground.
Damage had been done—amsteel turned black from heat, rope burn, friction from slipping.
I stopped using Phantom Grappler suspension, even though it had a fantastic name.

Everything weakens rope
Knots weaken rope
Sun and weather can weaken rope with age
Hardware weakens straps and rope
Friction weakens rope

Most of us follow best practices
Buy hammock weight rated suspensions from reputable cottage vendors, many listed in hammock forums.

Inspect suspension after each use, replace when there is unusual wear and tear.

Adjust and hand tighten any knots or hardware, before slowly getting into hammock.

Splices in adjustable whoopie slings and UCR should have long enough buries to not slip after hand tightening or milking the bury.

Avoid all slip and grip knots on hammock suspension. I do use slip and grip knots on tarp guylines.

Even though rope on rope connections can be deadly while rock climbing on high cliffs, for hammock camping a rope on rope connection can be safe——
As long as the rope or strap is hammock weight rated. Many of us use a 5 to 1 and up to a 10 to 1 margin of safety.
And as long as there is no sliding of rope on rope or rope on strap.

Many of us, use 7/64 inch amsteel rated at 1500 pounds. Some of us, use 1/8 inch amsteel rated at 2500 pounds. And we get straps rated about the same.

Hammock campers with rock climbing experience, often have great rigging for their hammocks.

Watch Shug’s YouTube videos of hammock suspensions, to see a variety of rigging that is currently used by many hammock campers.

[cougarmeat]

Even though there is very little, if any, “rope” to rope (any line, Amsteel, etc.) movement with the hammock suspension - certainly not like pulling a standard length climbing rope through nylon webbing - some of us are “Old School” and grew up with a variety of disciplines. That some of us are still playing “outdoors” in our 60’s and 70’s means we actually paid attention to what the guides were teaching us.

Though it is not necessary, I strive to put some hardware piece between two lines so there is no rope-on-rope. Additionally, the hardware - usually a ring - provides a water break. And I can easily swap out line/webbing/daisy chain/Whoopie sling on the ring to try out different suspensions.

[cmoulder]

As Phantom Grappler mentioned, having no slippage avoids friction/abrasion/heat which can kill a 7/64" CL quickly.

I have seen a Becket — when tied as a straight-up slipped sheet bend... no extra wraps, back-up knots, etc — slip with only minimal shock loading when using UHMWPE webbing, but not with rougher texture 3.3g/ft Kevlar webbing.

The J-bend does not slip at all no matter what materials are being used. One of the few common hammock knots about which this can be said.

What can commonly create friction problems is when releasing these knots. If you do nothing to loosen the CL and pull the tag end of the webbing very hard, you can cause serious damage to the CL with only one pull if you have a big bight and vigorously yank it through that very tight loop. Which is why it is essential to use a little pull loop on the CL to loosen it before pulling on the tag end of the suspension webbing.

becket_hitch_pull_loop.jpg

The J-bend actually has something of a 'built-in' pull loop, because you can grab the tag end and its corresponding bit of webbing on the bight side, which is then pulled away from the CL loop.

J-bend_pull_loop.jpg

The exact same thing can be done with the slipped Lapp Hitch, which I've been using for about 2 years with zero slippage using Kevlar 3.3 webbing. However, this knot appears to be too simple to work and there might be some resistance due to this, even among ardent knotheads. I stumbled across it while playing with other knots and didn't even know what it was or whether it was safe, referring to it as the 'Death Hitch.' A HF member (leiavoia) figured out what it is, and it turns out that Phantom had referenced it at some earlier time in one of his HF posts.

[cmoulder]

I should add that I've also tested Becket (straight-up... no backup knots) with heavier 6-10g/ft polyester and it worked very well with no slippage, but I don't have a vast amount of experience with it on the trail. And recently I tested the very light 3.3g/ft polyester and it held well but is too stretchy for my tastes, especially as a long-time Kevlar user, and its 900lb rating is a bit scary.

[packman9000]

Everything weakens rope
Knots weaken rope
Sun and weather can weaken rope with age
Hardware weakens straps and rope
Friction weakens rope

Most of us follow best practices

Right to the point on this, and using anything the wrong way or the right way long enough will result in wear and eventual failure if continued. It boils down to common sense and knowing your gear, and knowing what condition it's in. I've used Amsteel on Amsteel and never had an issue, but I always inspect it before heading out on a trip.

[TheWalkman]

Thanks for the comments. You’ve reinforced my hunch that even though Dyneema has good abrasion resistance, it will melt and wear just like our old nylon ropes and webbing from back in the day, albeit more slowly.

Obviously, Dyneema is also subject to bending and knot weakness and some of these current rigs seem to bend the cord acutely which is a bit bothersome and goes against my indoctrination for rope care from my youth.

Though I have no empirical data to show this, my gut tells me there are better ways!

Though some might say, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” - and they’re probably correct - I have some ideas for a hybrid suspension with Dyneema and hardware that I am going to experiment with. Nothing radical, but taking the best of both the hardware and no-hardware rigs and combining them.

We shall see!

These days, I’m primarily using my hammock for bicycle trips, moto/ car camping and an occasional backpacking trip, so if some metal hardware adds an ounce or two to my hang, that’s ok. I really care more about reliability, ease of use and peace of mind than than an extra ounce here and there. My days being a gram weenie may be behind me: I’d rather spend my time counting the fun factor!

[TheWalkman]

Here’s an interesting video from Triple Nickle Outdoors completely reinforcing my original concern about cord on cord damage.

https://youtu.be/F_JR89zbfNA

As well as this thread:

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ight=Mule+tape

[cmoulder]

Here’s an interesting video from Triple Nickle Outdoors completely reinforcing my original concern about cord on cord damage.

https://youtu.be/F_JR89zbfNA

As well as this thread:

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ight=Mule+tape

Reaffirming yet again that Mule tape is not a good option... a tiny amount of slippage does significant damage.

I've also found that when I tie it to trees it snags on everything and quickly becomes ragged and tattered.