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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    The strategy I use in the winter is to sleep in my down parka AND down pants (Montbell TEC) which permits me to carry a lighter TQ. I have an older 20deg Enigma, and, as you have observed, the ratings on the older EEs are generally agreed to be a tad 'generous', but even so I have used this combo down to -6°F with no problems. Down pants are a frequently overlooked winter piece, but once you've used them you'll never be without them again.

    I think that nowadays EE ratings are much more realistic. I have a 7D/950FP 30deg Enigma that weighs 14.12oz and compresses to an amazingly small volume. If you look at their chart now, the displayed weight (same 30deg spec as above) is about 15.4oz, so maybe they're now adding even more down (?) At any rate, the 20deg with the 7D/950 spec weights about 18oz, which is pretty darn good.
    Does your Enigma have the footbox toggles to keep a foam pad in place under the feet?
    I just noticed that in the specs when comparing it with the HG Burrow. Do you use them, do they get in the way or effect comfort?
    I'm leaning toward the EE if for no other reason than you can spec it with 7D for a little extra weight savings over the HG which is 10D. A tall wide EE in 7D is 0.5 ounces lighter than 10D according to the EE build sheet, so not sure it's even worth worrying about unless the 7D packs noticeably smaller.
    I like the EE build sheet, that it shows estimated weight and price as you change fabrics. Slick. Not sure why you'd mix and match interior/exterior fabrics. Is there a performance benefit to doing a 7D/10D quilt?

  2. #12
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    I know you were asking cmoulder - but I'll chime in to say the footbox toggles are only on the "hammock edition" Enigma. The H.E. also eliminates the standard ground pad attachment points.

    Windproofness might be one reason to go with 10D over 7D for an outer shell. Per EE's specs:

    Windproofness

    Cubic Feet per Minute, or CFM, is a fabric windproofness measurement. For example, a typical rain jacket would be about 0.5cfm, Windpro fleece would be 60cfm, and a typical fleece would be around 200cfm.

    Our 20D is around 1cfm, which is considered nearly windproof. 10D is around 10cfm, so it's highly wind-resistant. 7D is around 35cfm.
    Last edited by cmc4free; 11-03-2020 at 11:42.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    I know you were asking cmoulder - but I'll chime in to say the footbox toggles are only on the "hammock edition" Enigma. The H.E. also eliminates the standard ground pad attachment points.

    Windproofness might be one reason to go with 10D over 7D for an outer shell. Per EE's specs:

    Windproofness

    Cubic Feet per Minute, or CFM, is a fabric windproofness measurement. For example, a typical rain jacket would be about 0.5cfm, Windpro fleece would be 60cfm, and a typical fleece would be around 200cfm.

    Our 20D is around 1cfm, which is considered nearly windproof. 10D is around 10cfm, so it's highly wind-resistant. 7D is around 35cfm.
    Excellent point about windproofless.

  4. #14
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    That said, I have a number of underquilts with 10D in and out, and none with 7D in or out - but that's not for lack of faith in the material. The reason is simply that I don't have any EE underquilts, and the only other hammock quilt vendor I know of who has sold products using 7D fabric is George Carr of Loco Libre Gear. He was using RipstopByTheRoll's 0.56oz Membrane 7 Ripstop Nylon, which has been unavailable for some time. To me, the EE 7D fabric and Membrane 7 have very similar feel, etc.

    I have two topquilts with 7D inside and outside - one from EE and one from Loco Libre with the aforementioned Membrane 7. Both have proved very downproof for me so far, and neither has left me cold at outside temps near or at their ratings. They are extremely "stuffable."

    Sometimes the cooling effect of wind is welcomed. On the cold nights when it's not, a topquilt is more sheltered from the wind by the fabric side walls of the hammock and by the tarp than an underquilt which is much more exposed. There could be some logic there for choosing 10D for an underquilt and 7D for a topquilt.

    I also have a few Montbell 7D clothing items and have so far not had any issues with durability or heat retention using them, though I wouldn't go bushwhacking or hang around a crackling campfire in them. Montbell's 7D fabric seems to me like a closer match to RBTR's 0.75oz MTN 7 Risptop Nylon 6/6. That fabric is apparently more windproof than Membrane 7 and more durable due to the yarns being Nylon 6/6 vs. Nylon 6 for Membrane 7. Those characteristics lend to my belief that Montbell's "Ballistic Airlight" 7D fabric is similar to MTN 7, as Montbell is using it in UL windshirts and pants as well as shell material for their lightest down garments.
    Last edited by cmc4free; 11-03-2020 at 15:12.

  5. #15
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Great rundown on the materials by cmc4free!

    My Enigmas/Revs don't have any sort of toggles or ties to keep CCF pad in place. I just chuck it in there and manipulate it with my feet and that works okay for me.

    7D vs 10D 'stuffability' isn't huge but it is noticeable. Durability is hard to say as well, but thus far I have no reason to doubt that it isn't adequate for me, and although I don't baby my gear I am also not a klutz with it, either. (I once observed somebody sitting near a campfire with a quilt draped over him, booted feet inside the footbox and resting on the ground... internally, I recoiled in horror but held my tongue... not something I would do to my quilts.)

    Regards to windproofness + water shedding + light weight, a very good argument could be made for Argon 67 (10D) for the outside shell of an UQ.

    My 0deg Incubator was exposed to some very serious backsplash the very first time I used it. It was Friday (Jan 12) of MLK weekend 2018 and a strong weather front was barreling through, with an overnight low around 55°F with very strong wind gusts and many hours of torrential rain. The following morning the temperature was 27°F and falling, with a low of 8°F the following night and 4°F the night after that. Anyway, that Saturday morning I thought the down would be soaked and the trip would be over, but there were only frozen water drops on the quilt that mostly shook right off, and the down had lost no loft at all.

    Not fer nuthin', 2QZQ makes their UQP from Argon 90, which says a lot about the material.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  6. #16

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    Too many choices. I'll stick with my 4 lb Northface bag made with an outer shell of naugahyde and an inner shell of fine corinthian leather

  7. #17
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobonli View Post
    Too many choices. I'll stick with my 4 lb Northface bag made with an outer shell of naugahyde and an inner shell of fine corinthian leather
    Haha, then yer gunna need something a little heftier than an Arc Blast!
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  8. #18
    FLTurtle's Avatar
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    Something about this size should do.

    giant-jansport-backpack-thumb.jpg

  9. #19
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLTurtle View Post
    Something about this size should do.

    giant-jansport-backpack-thumb.jpg
    lol I've seen similar on the trail so that's not much of an exaggeration!
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Not fer nuthin', 2QZQ makes their UQP from Argon 90, which says a lot about the material.
    This has been rattling in my head all day. Is the “best of both worlds” (packability and weather resistance) choice a TQ made with 7D and add an UQP when it’s windy or wet? Or does that just get me back to the same weight and bulk of the 10d?

    I might be trying too hard to find Goldilocks.

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