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  1. #1
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    Long huggers are unnecessary: change my mind

    Here in the PNW we have some giant trees, many like 18' circumference, and of course many smaller. Nobody makes huggers this big, meaning that even with the longest huggers, I have tensioned Amsteel right up against the tree sometimes.

    This used to bother me, being a person who likes trees and has been taught that rope against tree is always bad. But now I'm not so sure. Think about it: the total suspension load is distributed all the way around the tree. If it's a small tree, indeed the hugger/strap/rope pressure per inch can be high, so it's important to spread it out as wide as feasible to avoid tree damage. But as the tree gets bigger, the same pressure is distributed over a longer circumference distance, meaning less need for a wide strap.

    The suspension pressure per inch on a 6" diameter tree with a 3" hugger is probably greater than on a 6' tree with just bare Amsteel. So as long as the tree end of my suspension has enough width to protect small trees from excessive pressure (a short hugger), any extra circumference taken up by Amsteel isn't a big deal.

    Bonus is I can get my hammock right up against the tree when I need to, since I seldom have excess hugger coming off the tree.

    My suspension for both hammock and tarp is a single strand of Amsteel with a hugger and Turtle Ties on both hammock and tarp.

    5CC76E05-A679-4D19-A3B2-04A44377726C_1_201_a.jpg

  2. #2

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    Can't fault your logic unless one wants to be extremely pedantic - and as a bonus, I don't recall ever reading about a hugger solution to the giant trees of the PNW. Perhaps it was always an unwritten, unspoken understanding (a secret) that is now exposed to the entire world via internet.

    ...forgot I was supposed to change your mind. Oh, well.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
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    To understand the forces involved research the Euler-Eytelwein equation and how it relates the tension and the interaction of the frictional forces of the two ends of the rope wrapped around an object. Hammock hanging is a classic Capstan load problem. The load into the tree is not uniform and is sinusoidal peeking between 45* and the backside of the tree.

    Just because a tree is particularly large using straight amsteel is not a good idea.
    Last edited by jeff-oh; 08-23-2020 at 21:51.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Baka Dasai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    To understand the forces involved research the Euler-Eytelwein equation and how it relates the tension and the interaction of the frictional forces of the two ends of the rope wrapped around an object. Hammock hanging is a classic Capstan load problem. The load into the tree is not uniform and is sinusoidal peeking between 45* and the backside of the tree.

    Just because a tree is particularly large using straight amsteel is not a good idea.
    As a rough guide for BIG trees, would limiting the amsteel-to-tree contact to only the front half of the tree be ok? The front third?

  5. #5
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    I've added a 3' dogbone to 12' straps get around a tree without even a thought and I'm careful in not leaving any sort of mark on trees or even the ever present moss if I can help it. I am turning the idea around in my head a bit lately and thinking of carrying a pair of 4-5' 2" straps to use in lieu of my usual 12' and 15' 1" wide spider straps when I get to use smaller but possibly more delicate trees. Of course a 1" strap isn't going to cause significant actual damage to a hangable tree and they can always be wrapped a couple times but I prefer to not leave any visual evidence at all. An extra ounce or so might be worth the piece of mind.

  6. #6
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    Sap

    Amsteel abrasion damage

    I'm not too worried about damaging a tree with 4" of bark on it, but i dont want my stuff shredded up and gobbed with sap. Between strap and amsteel, i think the strap is the more disposable item, so it i let it take the most abuse. I routinely wash mine with dish soap in a bucket when i get home.

    Additionally, i've lately taken to a strap-only system and tie directly to the CL on the hammock, assuming there is enough strap left over. If there isn't, i have amsteel backup. But i would prefer to have a long strap for tying off.

  7. #7
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    If we lived in an isolated world it wouldn’t matter. Our PNW Ponderosa Pines have pretty thick bark. Note that any damage is probably more related to the bark the tree has rather than it’s diameter - acknowledging larger diameter trees usually have thicker bark.

    But if you are in a campground, your “It doesn’t hurt.” discussion with a park offical may not go well. Even though webbing is not necessary to protect the big tree, it does demonstrate to any observer the preferred method for hanging.

    For me, it’s sort of like when I encourage joy (an adult so I have to “encourage” rather than demand) to wear her bike helmet. She says, “I wear it when I’m on the main streets but there is no traffic in the neighborhood.” My take is there are little kids in the neighborhood and if they see Joy wearing her bike helmet, it’s an example to them to wear their helmet.

    So with tree straps even though the bark is 2 inches (or more) thick. Also - there is the abrasion factor, especially if the line is under tension. That thick bark is often also sharp.

    That only the back of the tree needs attention is a good observation but I run into so many different diameter trees that I can’t optimize weight saving but eliminating a small amount of webbing. Replacing the whole suspension with amsteel is possible and if I were “off trail” and those few oz’s were important, that would be one place to loose them.

    Given the sharp bark I’ve dealt with, The abrasion on Amsteal vs abrasion on webbing would be interesting. My experience is line under tension cuts pretty easily; more so than webbing.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 08-27-2020 at 12:12.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  8. #8
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    @cougarmeat, i’m not advocating using no huggers or straps. I’m suggesting instead that a hugger long enough to protect a small tree is probably also plenty long enough to protect a large tree even if it doesn’t go all the way around. I like gooless’s idea of adding dogbones to increase likelihood of the hugger being at least on the back half of the tree.

    I avoid campgrounds, dispersed/stealth camping usually.

    Just to stir the pot further, bicycles have been my main mode of transportation for over 30 years, thousands of miles every year, never owning motor vehicles before 3 years ago (I’m 54). Only time I’d wear a helmet is when riding sportily or in endurance mode through unfamiliar places, where it served as a sun hat. Best data i could come by indicated that risk of head injury while bicycling, either by mile of exposure or by hour (unless drunk, an unskilled child, or riding at race speeds) is intermediate to risk of head injury walking or driving, activities for which nearly nobody advocates helmet wearing. Meanwhile indiscriminate helmet advocacy serves to suppress bicycling by portraying it as an unusually dangerous activity, and politically to excuse irresponsible driver behavior and delay/deny infrastructural reforms better to accommodate nonmotorized street uses.
    Last edited by Latherdome; 08-24-2020 at 20:05.

  9. #9

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    So far, replies to LD regarding damage to extra large trees range from perceived-potential damage to actual damage. The desire to never be perceived to be wrong or be viewed as a potentially poor public example sometimes leads to always/never conclusions. If anyone wants to live that way, I have no issue. On the other end of the spectrum, we have a capstan equation that theoretically could assess actual damage to a surface. My relatively wrinkle free brain would hemorrhage long before solving such a problem so one option is simply to experiment.

    If the experiment is conducted in a location where other experimenters are unlikely to try to replicate the deed (such as a stealthy, but legal location in a forest), the experimenter can assess the damage (or lack of) the next day to determine whether continued experimentation is desirable. Thus, through life experience, a conscientious citizen could exercise individual pursuit of happiness while also protecting the beautiful outdoors shared by all. If anyone wants to live that way, I have no issue.

    Many of us typically live somewhere in between. Some days we adhere to always/never and some days we experiment. Thanks for putting up with the extra bloviating. I may change my mind some day. Need more experience.
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  10. #10
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    in short, what jeff-oh said, just remember the tree is a fixed capstan though. also in short: one way to improve the situation, and isolate the area where strap/protection is needed to half of the circumference, is what i described in the "a better treestrap" thread, which basically ammounts to loading both ends of the strap (i think it also distributes the load better, but i would have to verify that). with my method you can safely use 1m of strap on a 2m circumference (or about0.7m diamater) tree, as the front side of the system does not need touch the tree at all

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