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  1. #1
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    not quite a soft shackle (help needed)

    it appears i desperately need help. see, i made so many of "these things" (tm) during the r&d process, that now i must give "these things"(tm) a name (you see what i mean by now, i'm sure). i was considering "multi shackle", but i'm afraid my advertising budget doesn't stretch to cover whatever mila jovovich might be charging these days.

    the basic idea to start with was to have some small, soft piece of not-hardware to make it easy to suspend objects (like a backpack); with a normal soft shackle it's extremely annoying to work under even light load, as it tends to come out of one object or the other, until it is closed. this was the start, but it turned into something more universal. the other main intended use was to have a quick connecter for the tarp to the friction hitches (prusiks) that go on the ridgeline, but again not have to juggle, but connect in two steps, "this thing"(tm) (please help) allows this, and also using it as the friction hitch and the connector at the same time, as desired. i also wanted a nice way to connect the ridgeline itself to the tree straps (through the progress capture/tensioning system i showed in the other little video).

    below the gory details (skip if you're easily bored), a short video showing how it looks and works, and a few pics showing some of the configurations described below in some detail. if anybody finds it useful and would like step by step instructions to build some and play with them, please ask. i would really like to put together some setup to be able to break test "these things" (ugggh), i hope next week. if i'm right, the yellow one pictured in some of the photos i might not be able to break at all, as i suspect it is actually stronger than a classic soft shackle (near "line strength", and that would mean 3.8tons, which i certainly won't have the equipment to pull), but we shall see. in the meantime, please keep in mind all these are experimental, until i can provide results of comparative load tests at least, so should not be used for supporting live primates. hopefully that will change once tested (although closing by larks head/pile hitched to itself should be bomb proof safe)

    short video (50s):

    https://youtu.be/wQ86D5eBYl8


    a few pics:

    IMG_20200718_164701.jpg
    IMG_20200718_164423.jpg
    this is the basic mode #1

    IMG_20200718_164152.jpg
    this is "summer mode" (no gloves expected)

    IMG_20200718_164217.jpg
    "winter mode" (big tactile helpers, easily removable)

    IMG_20200718_164252.jpg
    this is a traditional soft shackle equivalent, closed with a pile hitch (i prefer it to the girth hitch for this purpose)

    IMG_20200718_164335.jpg
    but the girth hitch also works (the pull tab makes it very easy and fast to undo, too)


    IMG_20200718_164526.jpg
    IMG_20200718_164549.jpg
    IMG_20200718_164604.jpg
    this is "mode 4" below, maybe better demonstrated in another short video. it should be used with care, for non critical loads only, but seems it might prove very useful

    IMG_20200718_165111.jpg
    IMG_20200718_165235.jpg
    IMG_20200718_165311.jpg
    IMG_20200718_165350.jpg
    this is mode 7, might prove useful for attaching to the hammock cl (once load testing is positive)

    IMG_20200718_170939.jpg
    friction hitch (tarp on ridgeline) mode. this is the VT, which i tend to prefer to the prusik most of the time.

    IMG_20200718_170323.jpg
    prusik can work too





    basic design:

    - button knot (brion toss or similar)
    - midpoint capture with "fake brummel" for easy release and secure capture
    - !no ring loading allowed when captured at midpoint (will fail by design)!
    - 5 stacked brummels under the midpoint capture, for stability
    - loop opposite button, with pull tab
    - optional "winter mode" pull tab on the variable leg of the capture loop (easy release/connect with gloves on)
    - alternate "knots only" design (for non spliceable rope, paracord etc): button knot, 4way cylindrical braid with the tails (instead of burry), seized with a few constrictor knots made of small stuff (paracord core); two overhand or figure eights made on both strands together, reasonably spaced to create a capture loop. nowhere near as nice to work with, but does the trick. especially useful if one can't find spliceable nylon/polyester single braid to use, as dyneema is unsuitable for "accessory gear loops" and "hitch cord shackles" (as dyneema sucks for friction hitches)

    uses

    -1 basic: larks head to object or closed shackle/line etc (end of hammock), close button knot on midpoint capture

    main intended use #1 (s-binner replacement sort of); don't expect more than line strength it's made of (theorethical max would be 2xline strength). the point is to be able to attach a payload independent of the connection to the "supporting object", ideally one handed too, and allowing quick release (this design achieves all three things)

    -2 basic tarp mode: friction hitch (vt, prusik, etc) to continuous ridge line, button knot connected to midpoint capture after going through tarp tieout.

    main use #2

    -3 soft shackle replacement: button captured by larks head or pile hitch of opposite loop

    -4 soft shackle hitch: button knot captured inside larks head hitched to "something small" (line, carabinner, etc).

    - very nice/easy to work with under moderate load
    - quite insecure in "temporary connection" state
    - generaly not wise for any life support etc use (only gear, no hammock hang)
    - probably very strong
    - friction enabled "two step" connect/disconnect even under load: make eye big, connect, close eye (now secure, hands off possible); reverse to disconnect.

    -5 two step s-binner style: girth hitch to object, first payload on, close on middle capture loop, prepare girth hitch for capture, add second payload, close on girth hitch capture; now there's two payloads retained independently, but they can only be released in the reversed order in which they were added (probably not very useful)

    -6 organizer mode: one of these (or any softshackle) hanging girth hitched to a supporting object, several of them girth hitched on it hanging against its button knot, payloads hanging on each, captured at midpoints.

    -7 square-hitched to a non-ring-loaded loop (like hammock CL, or other closed, unloaded soft shackle); the square bend of the two loops becomes the capture point for the button knot

    -8 tree strap connector: prusik or pile hitch on tree strap, button knot closes on ridge lines progress capture (vt with tending loop)

    -9 girth hitch to "payload", attach to supporting objects as needed using the middle capture loop (e.g. one of these lives on the backpack handle, on on camera pack, etc)
    ###

    not recommended for any life support (so no hammock hanging, tarp hanging okay) until i can do break tests

    - strength

    by design, strength in "basic mode" should be half of a soft shackle made with the same line (as in this mode the shackle is not doubled up half of the way, so only 2 strands instead of 4)

    in the "soft shackle" modes it should be as strong as a soft shackle, but only break tests will tell

    - security

    in modes 1,2,3,8 it should be bomb proof (but break test required first)

    in all other modss should be considered insecure and only used for non life, non critical stuff, "keychain/accessory carabinner mode" (even if with 4, once the girth hitch capture is closed, looks "safe", it is to easy for it to come loose under load-unload cycles; it is solid if constantly loaded, like hanging a backpack or such, but in any other application it's asking for trouble)
    Last edited by nanok; 07-21-2020 at 09:42.

  2. #2
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    just two more:

    organizer mode:
    IMG_20200718_165854.jpg-small-sig3.jpg

    "poor man's" version (handy as tarp-ridgeline connector, if you can't find spliceable polyester/nylon
    IMG_20200718_170440.jpg-small-sig3.jpg

  3. #3
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
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    I find a simple locked brummel loop (2nd loop in pic) will capture and hold the button knot securely. If you attache the locked brummel loop like an evo loop then you can have the two position loop also.

    loops.jpg.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    I find a simple locked brummel loop (2nd loop in pic) will capture and hold the button knot securely
    that works for noncritical uses and very light loads, if configured as in my pics (the one made only of knots with no splicing clearly shows it), but i wouldn't call it "secure". perhaps my "upbringing" as a climber etc makes me a bit more strict. i don't see the one showed in your pic as working very well though, but maybe I'm missing something. what i showed is designed to be suitable for all uses. it is in any case quite different to what you show in the pic, in a lot of ways (intended use to start, i guess)

    If you attache the locked brummel loop like an evo loop then you can have the two position loop also.

    loops.jpg.
    i'm afraid i don't know what you mean by this at all. perhaps i'm missing your terminology

  5. #5
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
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    sounds like you know what you want and have things all figured out.

  6. #6
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    Hi nanok!
    Good to see more of your ideas . I liked your idea of using VT for auto guylines.I am somehow modified this design to work as tarp ridgeline auto tensioner , soon I wil test it on hike.
    About EVO loops and some design ideas I recomend you look to videos from Jeff Myers (Youtube) .He have some great ideas as well.
    Most classical designs of soft shackles works pretty well for hammock aplications ,peoples using them in hammocking for years without problems.
    I am as well using them a lot. At tarps,straps, hamock ends.No issues at all.
    I like your idea of using VT at tarp as replacemen for prussik( prussiks sometimes bind to much at ridgeline and it is pain in a loop to unbind em)
    best regards from Russia.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    sounds like you know what you want and have things all figured out.
    on the contrary, i try to post such things while still in the r&d stage (so while still figuring it out) , as it is clear people here can contribute with very interesting ideas, so i appreciate the discussion a lot, thank you

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by shichimi View Post
    Hi nanok!
    Good to see more of your ideas . I liked your idea of using VT for auto guylines.I am somehow modified this design to work as tarp ridgeline auto tensioner , soon I wil test it on hike.
    About EVO loops and some design ideas I recomend you look to videos from Jeff Myers (Youtube) .He have some great ideas as well.
    Most classical designs of soft shackles works pretty well for hammock aplications ,peoples using them in hammocking for years without problems.
    I am as well using them a lot. At tarps,straps, hamock ends.No issues at all.
    I like your idea of using VT at tarp as replacemen for prussik( prussiks sometimes bind to much at ridgeline and it is pain in a loop to unbind em)
    best regards from Russia.
    spasibo

    the vt with tending loop: that is exactly the point, i use it on corners and for ridgeline too. would love to see how you use it (and I'm very glad to hear, that's exactly why i decided to post).

    i agree, the prusik jams too much typically, and is almost impossible to adjust under tension. it is still useful for when you need it improvised fast, without access to either end of the host line (like when you have the ridgeline already taut), but for semi-permanent rigging that can stay on the tarp, i much prefer the vt.

    thanks for pointing me to the evo loop term/explanation. so it's basically a "nooseless shackle", yeah i like them a lot too as you can see, and use them a lot too. what i am trying to add here is a way to "clip things in" one handed, under load when needed, much like with an sbinner or even normal carabiner. imagine this: you have your hammock all setup, it's been raining and all is wet on the ground, you want to clip the "valuables backpack" to one hammock end, one handed as you have the sleeping bag in one hand or coffe whatever, this thing enables you to do that among other things. it's not that i don't like soft shackles, on the contrary, I'm so obsessed with them i want tk use them for more things, hence this "invention" (if you can call it that). basically, in the above example, instead of the usual dance required to get a soft shackle around two objects and close it, without it pulling out etc, you do this: larks head "this thing" to whatever (hammock end cl or soft shackle for instance), then put the button knot through the backpack handle, and close it in the capture loop in the middle (which you can do one handed and all tactile, at night, without looking etc), you can also easily support the weight of the object just by holding on to the button knot while doing this, as you can see in the video (because now you have mechanical advantage and a bit of friction helping) , so backpack never needs to touch the ground, and coffee never spilled . i know i am greedy, but if there's a purpose for which hardware is better suited, it means there's potential room for improvement on the soft solution
    Last edited by nanok; 07-20-2020 at 09:01.

  9. #9
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    I have been using similar method of connecting parts which are under a load. Just a loop (continious or spliced at end rope ) larks headed twice to a soft shackle . Works similar as yours(works under load, can operate one hand) but it is not one solid piece and not so pretty



    P.S. I will made some testing with VT ridgeline tensioner and post pictures aftewards.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by shichimi; 07-21-2020 at 00:40.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shichimi View Post
    I have been using similar method of connecting parts which are under a load. Just a loop (continious or spliced at end rope ) larks headed twice to a soft shackle . Works similar as yours(works under load, can operate one hand) but it is not one solid piece and not so pretty
    yeah, that's an interesting connection mode, i mentioned it above (square bend to unloaded loop), it is quite nice how the middle of the bend captures the button knot, might even prove nice and secure. i actually like this solution a lot, i just don't like making continuous loops :P, but it can work nicely with two softshackles indeed

    i just realized you turn twice, why not just once, did you try? i like that much better from my testing, when used "inline" of course (so the continuous loop in your pic has no ring loading, but has linear load on it, as when you larkshead it to some object thus creating a version of "this thing"

    P.S. I will made some testing with VT ridgeline tensioner and post pictures aftewards.
    great, i'm in the process of taking some pics of that too, i'm looking forward to see what ideas you might give me about how to use it.
    Last edited by nanok; 07-21-2020 at 08:58.

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