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  1. #1
    New Member stebesplace's Avatar
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    Toggles and biners versus no hardware on hang setup?

    I’m having a debate with a friend on why someone might want a no hardware suspension setup, versus a carabiner, versus becket, versus toggles, etc., etc.

    I’m sort of in the camp of less-is-more, and the less hardware the better. My buddy is the opposite where he’s fine having some toggles, biners, etc., to help ease a setup.

    I know there isn’t a right way or wrong way necessarily, but curious what people do these days?

    In my example photo, I run a very basic ENO Helios XL setup, LH’ed to an Amsteel continuous loop. Off the CL is my underquilt hookup and a structural ridgeline. Clipped with an extremely small titanium clip from Hammock Gear is my underbelly gear hammock. Sometimes I have the gear sling clipped elsewhere, but in this example I have it attached for illustrative purposes.

    ENO Helios XL to CL:



    Titanium clip for underbelly (loose):



    The cord off that last photo hanging down is the extension for my UQ suspension (not hooked up).

    Comparison of toggle and biner sizes:



    The advantage of a toggle setup or biner is for attaching things, while not having them limits what you can hang. So it depends on your setup ultimately.

    I don’t really know where I’m going with this, just trying to figure out pros/cons of each setup, why I’d choose one over another, and ultimately what my best setup for my needs are. Right now I’m leaning towards the no hardware path simply because I don’t hang a lot of stuff off my suspension, and saves a couple ounces potentially (don’t really care about weight savings right now).

    Curious what everyone else might prefer after your own testing?

  2. #2
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    I'm in the simpler is better camp.

    Kevlar 1.9 or 3.3 webbing is tied to tree with Slipped Buntline or simply fed thru the loop, and tied to hammock CL with Lapp Hitch.

    But even the simplest knots are seen by many as some sort of arcane craft that is difficult to learn, hence the proliferation of gizmos.

    The advantage of knots is that you don't need hardware but the disadvantage is that many knots, especially friction hitches, don't work well with slippery cord such as Zing-it, Amsteel etc.

    There is one place in my kit where hardware is useful for me, which is the UQ where I use plastic S-biners to attach quilt to CL and Linelocs to adjust UQ shock cords. Other than that knots are enough for me. I use knot-friendly 2mm Lawson Glowire or Guywire and knots for tarp guy lines and ridge lines.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  3. #3
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    I'm a bit confused with your setup..

    I get the UQ extension and the Ti biner.

    Looks like you have whoopies hard attached to the CLs using a girth hitch (great place to use the toggle instead). Where are you using the toggle? Is that a dog with a toggle, that's intended to replace the CL? If so, I've done something like that using a diamond knot on the CL rather than the toggle. (where did you source that toggle please).

    I can't say I have tried EVERY option, but I've tried a ton, and I am settled on 2.2 Kevlar straps with an fig 8 splice & button knot at the tree, and a becket hitch at the CL. I do use Lineloc V's on the tarp ground points, and of course my UQ had some bits of hardware (though I have ditched the biner on the UQ for a simple hook) but other than that I am not using any hardware.

    My thought is that if a piece of hardware were to break while in the field, I would replace it with a non-hardware solution, right? So I just skip over these hardware bits and go right to the solution I would use in the field... A soft shackle, a diamond knot and spliced eye etc. I have yet to find a piece of hardware that can't be replicated with some creative cordage manipulation.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  4. #4

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    My setup is about as simple as I can imagine. I use 12-15 Spider/poly straps beckett hitched onto the continuous loops of the hammock. It's fast but not as fast as my previous, heavier strap/buckle combo. One extraneous addition I use is an EVO loop connected to the strap's loop to make readjusting around trees easier than just running the strap thru the loop.

  5. #5
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    Simple doesn’t necessarily mean “no hardware”. It can be simpler to warp around a metal horn and lock, than to tie a knot.

    Maybe a lot has to do with your life experience and environment you play in. Once, in a white out on Mt. Hood, I had to unzip a pocket on my pack and to get some rain gear. I had waited far too long to do that deed and the temperatures were freezing. I needed to take my hand out of a mitten to grab the zipper and could only have it exposed for seconds before the muscles froze up and I couldn’t move my fingers. So the hand went back in the mitten for a while. It took a LONG TIME, to get that pocket unzipped and rezipped. When I got home, I tied zipper pulls on the zippers of all my gear. Now I can open them with my teeth if I have to.

    I couldn’t imagine - well yes I could; that’s why I use hardware - milking a whoopie bury to setup or take down a hammock in freezing rain. A strap or daisy chain is much easier for me to adjust. And I usually have to make a small height adjustment on the tree so a Dutch Clip or other hardware to unclip the strap there is faster than untying knots or pulling the support back through the loop if you have to move it over a branch.

    I know how to tie knots - and I use hardware when it makes things … simpler.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  6. #6
    New Member stebesplace's Avatar
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    Toggles and biners versus no hardware on hang setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    The advantage of knots is that you don't need hardware but the disadvantage is that many knots, especially friction hitches, don't work well with slippery cord such as Zing-it, Amsteel etc.

    There is one place in my kit where hardware is useful for me, which is the UQ where I use plastic S-biners to attach quilt to CL and Linelocs to adjust UQ shock cords. Other than that knots are enough for me. I use knot-friendly 2mm Lawson Glowire or Guywire and knots for tarp guy lines and ridge lines.
    I agree with the slippery cords not always being the best for certain applications. I love some good hardware, Dutch bling, etc., but always argue with myself on whether I need them, or are they points of failure - or are my own knots points of failure more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    I'm a bit confused with your setup..

    I get the UQ extension and the Ti biner.

    Looks like you have whoopies hard attached to the CLs using a girth hitch (great place to use the toggle instead). Where are you using the toggle? Is that a dog with a toggle, that's intended to replace the CL? If so, I've done something like that using a diamond knot on the CL rather than the toggle. (where did you source that toggle please).

    I can't say I have tried EVERY option, but I've tried a ton, and I am settled on 2.2 Kevlar straps with an fig 8 splice & button knot at the tree, and a becket hitch at the CL. I do use Lineloc V's on the tarp ground points, and of course my UQ had some bits of hardware (though I have ditched the biner on the UQ for a simple hook) but other than that I am not using any hardware.

    My thought is that if a piece of hardware were to break while in the field, I would replace it with a non-hardware solution, right? So I just skip over these hardware bits and go right to the solution I would use in the field... A soft shackle, a diamond knot and spliced eye etc. I have yet to find a piece of hardware that can't be replicated with some creative cordage manipulation.
    Sorry my photos are not great, it's a lousy setup in my garage and I didn't show a full end-to-end setup. I do have whoops hard attached to the CL's using a loop-to-loop, which could be called a few other things, but it's both loops connected to each other essentially which eliminated a carabiner or toggle. The toggle is an ENO toggle setup that I got on my SuperSub a long time ago. I really like them, and basically replaced them to use a more simple CL connection. The only thing I would connect to them included my underbelly gear sling, underquilt, and maybe my bug net. But with my new setup, I've gone more to using the titanium clips on the accessory instead. They weight nothing, and give more flexibility to hang elsewhere aside from the hammock (for the underbelly), and my UG uses it's own hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Simple doesn’t necessarily mean “no hardware”. It can be simpler to warp around a metal horn and lock, than to tie a knot.

    Maybe a lot has to do with your life experience and environment you play in. Once, in a white out on Mt. Hood, I had to unzip a pocket on my pack and to get some rain gear. I had waited far too long to do that deed and the temperatures were freezing. I needed to take my hand out of a mitten to grab the zipper and could only have it exposed for seconds before the muscles froze up and I couldn’t move my fingers. So the hand went back in the mitten for a while. It took a LONG TIME, to get that pocket unzipped and rezipped. When I got home, I tied zipper pulls on the zippers of all my gear. Now I can open them with my teeth if I have to.

    I couldn’t imagine - well yes I could; that’s why I use hardware - milking a whoopie bury to setup or take down a hammock in freezing rain. A strap or daisy chain is much easier for me to adjust. And I usually have to make a small height adjustment on the tree so a Dutch Clip or other hardware to unclip the strap there is faster than untying knots or pulling the support back through the loop if you have to move it over a branch.

    I know how to tie knots - and I use hardware when it makes things … simpler.
    I agree, it shouldn't mean no hardware. One thing I Haven't accounted for is rain in my suspension setup. I know you can use a whoopi clip, some tie off's, a ring, etc., and a carabiner could solve this as well, so maybe this is all a moot point for me to keep that in mind. I can say that the metal toggles do not shed rain since the cordage is overlapped to some extent, so you need a ring or hook or biner to shed rain.

    I've attached a diagram to show the current setup, again, trying to keep things simple and integrated so it's all in one package when I go to deploy. I used to have a couple things - suspension, hammock, underquilt connector, etc. Now I have it all in one easily enough. Still more to tweak!


  7. #7
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    Thanks

    I'll agree, having the whoopies hard attached to the CLs does make for quick deployment, it also means wet whoopies have to be packed with dry hammock. Youcould resolve that with a simple button knot in either the CL or whoopie, capturing by a loop in the other component. It can stay connected as you do now and removed if/when you caught in the rain.

    How are you using the UQ suspension extension? Got any pictures of that?

    Amsteel SRL on hammock... Dynaglide might prove a bit lighter and more compact.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  8. #8
    New Member stebesplace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    Thanks

    I'll agree, having the whoopies hard attached to the CLs does make for quick deployment, it also means wet whoopies have to be packed with dry hammock. Youcould resolve that with a simple button knot in either the CL or whoopie, capturing by a loop in the other component. It can stay connected as you do now and removed if/when you caught in the rain.

    How are you using the UQ suspension extension? Got any pictures of that?
    Man that’s a great point I didn’t think of, wet whoopies with a dry hammock. I think in the end having some ability to disconnect is the best option, toggle or biner, etc.

    I’ll grab a photo shortly of the UQ extension. Full disclosure it’s me testing a Kammok UQ against others in the 30 degree range.

  9. #9
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Some people forgo the CLs entirely and loop the whoopies' fixed eyes thru the hammock end channels.

    If I were a whoopie guy that's what I'd do, but I use a straight webbing-to-CL setup. I've never seen any ill effects from stuffing damp/wet straps in with the hammock. Keeping everything separate and dry in generally wet conditions is pretty much impossible anyway.

    And then everything dries out when you deploy it later, or spread out to dry at home.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  10. #10
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stebesplace View Post
    Man that’s a great point I didn’t think of, wet whoopies with a dry hammock. I think in the end having some ability to disconnect is the best option, toggle or biner, etc.

    I’ll grab a photo shortly of the UQ extension. Full disclosure it’s me testing a Kammok UQ against others in the 30 degree range.
    Making things modular works for me, if only for the ease of trying different options.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

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