Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 16 of 16
  1. #11
    Senior Member 509-T203-KG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Mead, WA
    Hammock
    REI Quarter Dome Air
    Tarp
    In the market...
    Insulation
    Air Pad + Mummy
    Suspension
    Becket to straps
    Posts
    151
    @BillyBob - The Nemo is actually 2 oz. lighter at 21 oz., vs 23 oz. for the XTherm. both pads are 25"x77".

    @Just Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    We can assume male, we don't know age, fitness level, outdoor experience, cold weather experience, or acclimation levels of the person.
    Male, 38 years old, 5'9" tall, 190 lbs (about 40 lbs over where I'd like to be).
    I don't do any of it as often as I should, but I snowboard, mountain bike and hike/backpack.
    I am pretty experienced in the outdoors and in cold weather, so I do believe there is an acclimation factor in play here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    The ability to 'rest', even if not sleeping deeply in cooler temps is a skill that does not seem to fade once learned. An experienced sleeper doesn't need to be as warm as a rookie and is less apt to wake up from a chill.
    While I do agree that I may have acclimated, through experience and testing, and developed an ability to sleep through cold better than some, I don't think that I'm some sort of super human warm sleeper. I have gotten cold in my tests and on trips, and generally find that I need a lower temp rating on my insulation than the actual conditions (even if it is accomplished by added clothing etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    But simple physics dictates that they do not perform as well in the air as they do on the ground. They simply are not designed for it. Despite our all-star super sleeper 509's success at XX temp with xyz mat- I think that if he were to find his absolute lower limit with the XthermÂ… it would probably still be much lower on the ground than in the air.
    I've seen you go further into this on other threads. I agree that pads are designed to be used on the ground, but this answer still doesn't do it for me.

    Per the Therm-a-Rest website "our proprietary reflective coating radiates heat back to your body and prevents heat loss." I'm no expert, but I did take physics and natural sciences in high school and college, and I can justify to myself that whether on ground or in air, my body heat is entering the pad and staying in it. The variable is that the underside of the pad is exposed to the air in a hammock. However, there is still the barrier of the underside of the hammock (especially the thicker ripstop nylon of the REI), and I don't find it a stretch to believe that the 70D fabric on the bottom of the pad, combined with the "proprietary reflective coating" would block heat loss from the air. Maybe the reflective coating itself is enough?

    But honestly, I have no idea what I'm talking about, and could easily be convinced otherwise. I simply have not seen a definitive answer on this issue. I'm going to write Therm-a-Rest and ask them what they think. Perhaps I should also set up an experiment to test it for myself. Maybe put a thermometer between my body and the pad for xx minutes on the ground, remove the thermometer for xx minutes to reset, then repeat in the air - all at the same ambient temperature?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    At the end of the day when we discuss temp we are at best talking user feedback.
    Experience will eventually sort out where you fall on the spectrum. And a little honesty with yourself on your current levels of acclimation and fitness should also inform your choices as time goes on.
    But the big trick IMO with all gear is finding the edge so you can take one healthy step back and admire the view without concern of falling off.
    Agreed. That is the point of all this for me - to figure out what gear I need to enjoy sleeping in the outdoors, and record that information as a reference. Can I go lighter (ie less insulated) if backpacking? What if I don't need to go lighter and want to be extra warm?

    I also figure that my personal stats (height, weight, age etc.) and experience are fairly average, if not leaning towards the more experienced end as far as cold weather goes. So while my experience of the performance of gear may differ from many others' experience of that same gear, there may be some for whom this data proves useful.
    Last edited by 509-T203-KG; 04-05-2020 at 20:02.

  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Tupelo, MS
    Posts
    11,108
    Images
    489
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Not to be the party pooper but if it's gunna be that kinda party I'll crap in the mashed potatoes.

    I don't wish to outright dismiss someone's opinion or experience but essentially that's what I'm about to do so might as well just get to it. It's nothing personal to 509.

    Simply speaking what we have here is an outlier. .................................................. ....................................... Point being-
    If this is personal it is directed at you Mr. Bob Pads and bridges are indeed a nice combo- within reason- and with the caveat that you can always drop your pad to the ground to get through an unexpectedly cold night.

    But simple physics dictates that they do not perform as well in the air as they do on the ground. They simply are not designed for it. .................................................. ....................
    Despite our all-star super sleeper 509's success at XX temp with xyz mat- I think that if he were to find his absolute lower limit with the XthermÂ… it would probably still be much lower on the ground than in the air.
    The mashed potatoes, really? YUCK! Not sure why anything is directed at me though. After all, I don't have near as much experience as either of you guys with pads in a hammock, at least I think I don't. As I have said more than once. Still, all I can do is state my limited experience. Which is a 1" thick, 2.6R rated TR self inflating torso sized stacked on top of a 5/8(?)" thick TR RR closed cell foam, very toasty at a bit below 20F. Definitely could have gone lower. That was in a Speer gathered end, using a Speer SPE, but I see no reason why it would be any different in a bridge. And I don't think I am all that hot natured. Certainly not as much as I was as a younger man. Other than that, not a lot to claim for experience. I have been able to do about 25F using a 2.5" TR Neo All Season (R4.9), an was plenty warm enough over all. But this was in that 90º hammock with the 3" deep pad pocket, which might keep me from being solidly on that 2.5" pad, so, I might not have been getting all I could out of that pad.

    That is all I've got for cold weather hammock use with a pad, not much. Except for noting how little a cold wind changed my warmth, at temps warmer than the above. But, still at temps cold enough that I had no doubt the unblocked wind would have been a bad problem with my UQs. In fact, I had already experienced that the wind very much decreased the warmth with my UQs, giving me a cold back until i switched to my pads. However, I have little doubt that however warm those pads were for me in a hammock, as you say, they would have been even warmer on the ground, without the wind blowing under them. I agree! Warmer on the ground, most likely. Still, it looks like for me they are also going to be warm enough in a hammock, plus wind and water proof without needing a really large tarp. Sadly, we didn't get enough cold nights this year for me to really put pads to the test. I was really hoping to do that with the HT90º.

    But I am no experienced expert on pads in hammocks, I am just reporting what limited experience I do have. And reading with interest 509s experiences. As always, my few experiences are not at all guaranteed to be the same as other folks.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Valpo, IN
    Hammock
    Towns-End Luxury Bridge
    Posts
    1,746
    Mr Bob-
    I was just kindly pointing out that you tend to get excited about this topic and have frequently pointed to 509's older post and some of duct tapes old posts. Everytime I almost think we got you squared away on this topic it seems your optimism takes over a bit.

    There is always a way to eventually make anything work, but at some point if you have a sled full of foam, multiple pads stacked or combinations of gear cobbled together you're not really talking equipment so much as technique/skill or even woodcraft/bushcraft or just good ol poor boy ingenuity.

    As a very simple bottom line:

    The thermarest Xtherm series is simply the best balance of weight, pack space, and thermal efficiency I am aware of.

    That is not a statement of one or a dozen- but some science, good construction and thousands of field reports from reliable sources across multiple outdoor pursuits (from mountaineering to backpacking and beyond).

    Perhaps the plainest way to say it- That pad works.
    It can get you below freezing in a bridge hammock.
    IF you get cold- you can put the pad on the ground.
    It works well below zero on the ground.

    I don't really see much discussion. Other than insulating your shoulders if they hang off... for about a pound and one piece of equipment you can do really well in typical winter conditions of zero to 32* F.

    For deep winter- I personally think hammocks are generally a poor choice from a backpacking perspective. If I'm car camping or casually camping- I'm not going to futz around and I'll make sure both myself and my hot toddy is properly warmed up.

    As discussed before... very few folks are really out much below zero.
    Around 20* MOST will find the xtherm to be too chilly to sleep well in a hammock.
    At that point- you can simply drop your suspension/bridge to the ground or pick up your pad and lay it on the ground where it will take MOST people to zero or lower.

    Winner in my book. Nothing much more to discuss. No magic tricks or science required.
    Below zero- I'll likely just hop in a gathered end or go to ground.

  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Valpo, IN
    Hammock
    Towns-End Luxury Bridge
    Posts
    1,746
    509-

    There are some military studies and other sleeping gear literature floating around over the years that are probably not worth your time unless you are building stuff for others.

    "Experienced sleeper" is actually a term used in the study. It's not a good one because of manly machisimo reasons. I try not to use the term much because it can offend folks- but more importantly it misleads them.

    It's a military term that describes those who have spent a good bit of time 'in the field' as opposed to your typical off the couch recruit or even normal service member who sleeps indoors. It covers a few things:
    -The simple ability to sleep comfortably outside and not awaken at every noise.
    -To rest well even during 'light sleep' as well as the ability to fall asleep quickly.
    -To learn to sleep in various positions that increase warmth. Sleeping in a cot with a blanket, pillow, and one arm hanging out is much different than sleeping in a mummy and curled into a tight ball.
    -Time spent outdoors (as in out of doors) in a continuous manner. As well as total sleep system familiarity.

    In large part- many of those items can be lumped into the term 'ACCLIMATION' which takes a few weeks to switch on.

    And on... there are several little bits but two useful takeaways-
    From a full, loose, back sleeping position with open hood to a fully fetal, curled, sealed up sleep position one can pick up 10* or more in warmth.

    An 'experienced' sleeper can sleep as much as 25* warmer than a non-experienced sleeper.

    Many long distance backpackers feel like (and act like) they are SUPER SLEEPERS in some manner as roughly 3-6 weeks into the hike they find their bodies literally change, adapt, and acclimate to their new 'normal'.

    I know you're not thinking that way... but the idea isn't too far off and for the most part it sounds as if you fall roughly into the 'experienced sleeper' category as its used in sleeping gear research. Keep in mind- this is not how tough you are, how manly, how many years camping or any other male ego benchmarks... this is an average person from town (in the fifties originally) who never sleeps outside or works outside or does anything at all vs one who does.

    Most military personnel simply work for the military in much the same way we all work in town. So in part the purpose of this knowledge was to design gear better for troops in the field.

    It is also almost always worth pointing out- these tests are based upon your average soldier... young, early twenties, (typically male), fit enough to clear boot camp, and with some additional mental toughening up as well. This is not your average mouse clicking 40 year old in a cubicle who leaped off the couch for a weekend trip.

    While I retain many skills, mental attitudes and experiences.... the simple fact I don't work and sleep outside an mainly sew in the basement rather than use gear means I would have to disqualify myself from the 'experienced' sleeper category at the moment. I would struggle to use gear I used well before as a result until I re-acclimate.

    As fer the magical Xtherm:
    1-Thermarest knows what they are doing. The basic design is a multi-chamber- double layer- trapped air cell pad. This functions exactly the same as a thermapane glass window.

    2-The reflective magic is just mylar film. It is REALLY good at radiation heat loss. It is the same standard space blanket material and to prove how good and bad it is you can simply take a space blanket, strip down to your undies and go stand outside in it. I think that will quickly show you the limits of the material.

    3-there are three kinds of heat loss- Convection, Conduction, and Radiation. The mylar is great for radiation. The multi-chamber air cell design is great for conduction- in this case contact with the ground.

    Two out of three ain't bad... As a ground sleeping pad in fact it is all you need. With you on top and the solid earth beneath you... other than a little convection along the side of the pad there is zero air movement across the pad.

    Add to this the simple fact that the ground is rarely as cold as the air temp (I know you posted earlier). Remember even in the northern USA the frost line is rarely much below 48" at which point the ground is 50* or so on average. Earth, forest duff, even snow is also 'insulation' of a sort. So at some point you often get a bit of equilibrium. In real life... even if it is howling windy outside and well below zero; your pad is not necessarily insulating you against the ambient air temp or even the surface temp. You do lose a little bit of heat and the earth below you warms a little and/or helps to insulate you further. This becomes quite evident during a winter camping trip where you freeze the bottom of your tent floor to the ground, lol. You've put out enough heat to thaw the earth below you and that liquid freezes as you get up, make coffee, and pack up.

    On the flipside- once you go airborne you expose your pad not only to convection loss, but to the 'real feel' or 'windchill' adjusted temp with no other insulation available. Adding socks and covers and tarps and whatever helps... but it is not the same.

    So while the Xtherm design is amazingly brilliant for it's intended use... in a hammock it can be a very bad choice. The Nemo has some physical insulation in it, as does the xtherm series and the long time favorite of many hangers is the Downmat as that is basically the same as an underquilt.

    As mentioned to Mr. Bob though...
    We are talking bridges, which do work sweetest with a pad of all the hammock designs. But an UQ is still more comfortable and better designed to handle convection losses.

    Presumably you are using a pad/bridge combo because you are willing, able, and perhaps might need to go to ground for some of your trips. So in my opinion lets dance with the partner we brought and examine what is the lower limit of this system as it is very versatile for mixed environment trips.

    In my book... this is just one final advantage.

    About 20-30* F- MOST will find the Xtherm cold in the air.

    To resolve this issue I will put it on the ground- where it will happily chug along as designed well towards zero and below.

    This is a ridiculously versatile piece of gear for what it is and weighs far less than any quilt, packs far smaller, and functions way better. Hundreds of long distance hikers have put thousands of nights on these pads.

    Is it the ideal combo for deep winter- no. But if there is good snow on the ground that can be just as comfy if not more comfy to sleep on and I will leave the bridge at home anyway.

    Bottom line again for me-
    Thermarest is the best pad company with decades of experience, the Xtherm is probably the best pad they make in terms of technologies/design and advanced materials.

    It is not a miracle in a stuff sack though. It is comfortable to use from 100* all the way to below zero. That is a very dramatic range of use. At 17-18 ounces for a large wide plus a sit pad for your shoulder you'd probably carry anyway it is lighter/smaller than any comparable quilt. Probably cheaper too.

    I am perfectly comfortable with the minor limitation that I will not take it to zero in the air.
    Nor am I concerned that I need to address that in anyway.

    Keep on keeping on with your tests- so you know. At this point I got a good feel for if I should even bother to set up the bridge or go to ground. I find it's easier to just plan on grounding out... but if I need to 'drop out' that's easy to do as well if I think ahead a little and go for it.

    A torso length foam pad, second pad, this that or the other thing could all be added to supplement.
    So what? The point is how far that one piece of kit can take you... once you know... good enough.

    For 95% of us who will actually use a bridge hammock in the winter and happen to use a pad... this single pad will cover us on 95% of our trips. I can think of few pieces of gear that work on every type of trip at all times of the year quite so well as this one.

  5. #15
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Hampton Roads, VA
    Hammock
    Black Bird XLC, Chameleon, Draumr
    Tarp
    Superfly
    Insulation
    Quilts/Pads
    Suspension
    Beetle Buckles
    Posts
    41
    Nice, I just got my rei hammock. Haven't set it up but I'm excited to try it. So far I've just swapped the suspension and working on stuff sacks for it. Thanks for posting.

  6. #16
    Senior Member 509-T203-KG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Mead, WA
    Hammock
    REI Quarter Dome Air
    Tarp
    In the market...
    Insulation
    Air Pad + Mummy
    Suspension
    Becket to straps
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by mehyatink View Post
    Nice, I just got my rei hammock. Haven't set it up but I'm excited to try it. So far I've just swapped the suspension and working on stuff sacks for it. Thanks for posting.
    Nice, I also swapped the suspension. I’d be interested in seeing what you come up with for stuff sacks if you felt like sharing.

    Cheers


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • + New Posts
  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

    Similar Threads

    1. Nemo Cloudview?
      By discmonkey in forum Camping Hammocks
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 01-14-2019, 17:37
    2. FS: Nemo Galaxi 2p with Nemo pad
      By taylo in forum [SOLD/WITHDRAWN] Items no longer available
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 11-12-2016, 09:53
    3. Nemo Tetrapod
      By RedRamen in forum Camping Hammocks
      Replies: 27
      Last Post: 10-29-2016, 10:09
    4. Replies: 7
      Last Post: 09-22-2015, 14:24
    5. Nemo Loop
      By mbiraman in forum Trip Reports
      Replies: 15
      Last Post: 10-04-2010, 16:28

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •