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  1. #21
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    Thanks for the Response Billy Bob. Good idea on testing out the UQ only with the pad solely for backup.
    I did see today that warbonnet can make a "torso" length lynx which in 950 fill in a 20* claim weighs 11 oz with the 15d fabric. They didn't the length for the torso model, and it may be longer then the DIY pods. I guess, though, I'd have to weigh the $190 cost versus 7 oz of weight savings. There's not much doubt where that choice would end up. LOL I bought the JBR MW4 for their Bear Mtn Bridge Hammock, originally, but, 2 years ago when I first tried to make the transition from the ground, I didn't get along with the bridge hammock real well. I ended up trying out the gathered end Chameleon, instead. With one adjustment, the MW4 seemed to fit up to the Chameleon fine when I tried it out last weekend. But, it was reasonably warm out, not much less than 40*. Like I said above, it's obviously I'm gonna need to try out different tweaks this winter, at home, as the temps get lower.

  2. #22
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    Thanks for the Response Billy Bob. Good idea on testing out the UQ only with the pad solely for backup.
    I did see today that warbonnet can make a "torso" length lynx which in 950 fill in a 20* claim weighs 11 oz with the 15d fabric. They didn't the length for the torso model, and it may be longer then the DIY pods. I guess, though, I'd have to weigh the $190 cost versus 7 oz of weight savings. There's not much doubt where that choice would end up. LOL I bought the JBR MW4 for their Bear Mtn Bridge Hammock, originally, but, 2 years ago when I first tried to make the transition from the ground, I didn't get along with the bridge hammock real well. I ended up trying out the gathered end Chameleon, instead. With one adjustment, the MW4 seemed to fit up to the Chameleon fine when I tried it out last weekend. But, it was reasonably warm out, not much less than 40*. Like I said above, it's obviously I'm gonna need to try out different tweaks this winter, at home, as the temps get lower.

    I always did well with the BMBH, as well as their newer bridges and the WBRR. Folks vary! But, that MW4 should work great with a Chamelion. I never got to push it near the limit in a gathered hammock. But I did test it in high winds, without adequate tarp blockage of winds, at 18F, and was plenty warm all night.

    Not sure what you mean by "They didn't the length for the torso model, and it may be longer then the DIY pods. "? Help an old guy out, I'm getting slower by the day!

    Pods at a balmy minus 16F, pod system first discussed at about 5:35, but then well and thoroughly described at 8:21 - 11:08. Warm and toasty at minus 16F, using 30F TQ and UQs( partial length?) surrounded by a 20F bag serving as the pod. Can not beat it! Defeats drafts and gaps!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_R5yH0rNMw


    Pods used minus 40F ( described at 16:20)!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTuGJgka1qc

    Shug is Da Man, and he says "Pods work great if you want to be warm". Or something like that!




    Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-20-2020 at 19:29.

  3. #23
    New Member
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    Sorry, Billy Bob, I got in a hurry trying to peck out the words.
    I meant to say that Warbonnet “didn’t list the length” of the torso model of the lynx UQ.
    When I looked at the photo of the torso lynx, it looked to me like it might be longer than Shug’s DIY pod in his -40 video.
    So, you’re thinking a 20* pod might take the 0* MW4 reliably down to -10 or so?
    I did the AT in the Smokies from Davenport Gap to Newfound in 1986 the week the space shuttle crashed and killed the teacher. I only had a zipper pull thermometer which wasn’t very accurate. It read -5 during that 3 day storm. If I could reliably get the hammock down to -10 with a pod, I don’t think our southeast mtn temps would get much below that.
    Thank you for sending the links. I’ll check them out. There’s a lot to learn. I realize that every time I start hanging stuff up.

  4. #24
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    Sorry, Billy Bob, I got in a hurry trying to peck out the words.
    I meant to say that Warbonnet “didn’t list the length” of the torso model of the lynx UQ.
    When I looked at the photo of the torso lynx, it looked to me like it might be longer than Shug’s DIY pod in his -40 video.
    So, you’re thinking a 20* pod might take the 0* MW4 reliably down to -10 or so?
    I did the AT in the Smokies from Davenport Gap to Newfound in 1986 the week the space shuttle crashed and killed the teacher. I only had a zipper pull thermometer which wasn’t very accurate. It read -5 during that 3 day storm. If I could reliably get the hammock down to -10 with a pod, I don’t think our southeast mtn temps would get much below that.
    Thank you for sending the links. I’ll check them out. There’s a lot to learn. I realize that every time I start hanging stuff up.
    You are welcome! I think a 20F pod, rigged correctly, would take a 0F UQ- at least for Shug, or for me, or for anyone else who was able to use a 0F UQ anywhere near 0F, a whole lot lower than minus 10F. Whatever I am able to do with a given UQ/TQ, I would expect that surrounding them with a 20F pod would add 30 or 40 degrees to it. Notice in that first link, where Shug uses his DIY pod, which is just a 20F bag around a +30F TQ and UQ, to be plenty warm down to minus 16F. So his 20F pod has added at least 46ºF to his TQ and UQ, Maybe more, since he was no where near cold yet.

  5. #25
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    In late 2019, I asked Sea to Summit support if the stated R-value changes when a pad is not fully inflated in a hammock. In other words, does the internal pressure of an inflatable pad have any effect on R-Values whether in a hammock or on the ground, fully inflated or partially inflated. Below is their response (the bold is mine).

    Thanks for your question.

    Sea to Summit has always tested its sleeping mats for R-Value in a laboratory; to date we have worked with the EMPA labs in Switzerland. Complete, production-quality mats are tested under laboratory conditions which include carefully monitored internal air pressure.

    Because this level of testing was not followed by all sleeping pad manufacturers, REI and MEC (the leading retailers in the US and Canada respectively) formed a working group which brought all brands together to agree on a testing standard (under the direction of the ASTM standards organization). That standard will become effective on January 1, 2020. It will allow consumers to compare R-Values across all brands.

    The tested R-Value of an air mat does decrease as the internal pressure decreases (The Ultralight was tested at a pressure equivalent to 0.7psi which resulted in the quoted R-Value of 3.3).

    However, it is important to know that even with the coming ASTM R-Value standard, the test is a static test. A sleeper moving around on a sleeping pad pushes air around inside the air-filled chambers, and this may result in warmth dissipating from the pad. The Air-Sprung Cell design is far less susceptible to this than many other designs.

    In a hammock two additional factors have to be taken into consideration:

    the pad may well become ‘kinked’ in places due to the curved surface of the hammock, leading to potential loss of warmth
    (again, the Air Sprung Cell design is less susceptible to this)
    unless it is restrained in some way, the pad may simply slide out from underneath the sleeper

    I trust the above is helpful; please let me know if I can provide additional details (including how R-Values are tested).

  6. #26
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Thanks for that info, Mando. I had figured that less inflation pressure would mean less thickness/loft, so less warmth. Interesting to see the R value simply related to pressure. I assume that is pressure used to inflate it before some one lays on it, since I think internal pressure would increase once weight is applied. But anyway, as I always suspected, less inflation equals less warmth, it appears.

  7. #27
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    Thanks, as well, Mando And Billy Bob. I had also assumed under inflation would decrease the effectiveness of the insulation. STS seems to confirm that. I never thought about losing R value due to bends etc. in the pad. Makes sense.

  8. #28
    Senior Member 509-T203-KG's Avatar
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    Mando, thanks for sharing that response from S2S. Good info. Unfortunately, their two points specifically in response to use in a hammock had more to do with the inherent difficulties of using a pad in a hammock than answering the main question of this thread: is there a difference in the insulating effectiveness in the air vs. on the ground?

    I have yet to see a satisfactory answer to this question. I hope to try an experiment sometime. Maybe lay on my side with a thermometer between the pad and my shoulder or hip, either on the ground or in the air for 15 minutes or more and see what the thermometer reads, then wait long enough for body/pad/thermometer to return to baseline numbers, then repeat the same in the air and see what it reads.

    I don’t know, it may take some figuring to come up with an accurate experiment. I haven’t used the scientific method for something like this since I was in college 20 years ago...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #29
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 509-T203-KG View Post
    Mando, thanks for sharing that response from S2S. Good info. Unfortunately, their two points specifically in response to use in a hammock had more to do with the inherent difficulties of using a pad in a hammock than answering the main question of this thread: is there a difference in the insulating effectiveness in the air vs. on the ground?

    I have yet to see a satisfactory answer to this question. I hope to try an experiment sometime. Maybe lay on my side with a thermometer between the pad and my shoulder or hip, either on the ground or in the air for 15 minutes or more and see what the thermometer reads, then wait long enough for body/pad/thermometer to return to baseline numbers, then repeat the same in the air and see what it reads.

    I don’t know, it may take some figuring to come up with an accurate experiment. I haven’t used the scientific method for something like this since I was in college 20 years ago...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sounds like a good experiment! I'm guessing you would have a greater chance of seeing an actual significant difference if it was a cold, and better yet also windy, day? With more cold air moving under the pad? Those are conditions that could certainly drive me to ground and onto a pad with an UQ, which would also solve that problem of feeling the cold wind under the UQ. If not very cold or windy, it might be harder to tell a dif between ground and up in the air. Maybe?

    I know from previous data I think you supplied that surprisingly the ground can actually be colder than the air. But I remember wondering, when looking at that data, if it would apply to a pad on the ground as temps dropped 20 or 30 degrees during the night? And of course, the wind factor. Which can be a huge factor with an UQ, but a lot less so- though maybe not zero- with a pad.

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