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  1. #11
    Senior Member 509-T203-KG's Avatar
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    Interestingly, I just did some quick Google research and found the info below indicating that land surface temperature (LST) can be 5-10°F COLDER than the air temperature.

    But I can’t find any research specifically comparing sleeping pads on ground vs. air. My experience and testing agrees with BillyBob’s in that wind has never been a factor for my under-insulation when using a pad.

    I used to under-inflate my pad for stability like chapinb, but on a backpack trip once, I was too cold on an unexpected freak-cold night. The next night was just as cold, but I fully inflated the pad and I was much warmer. I’ve fully inflated my pad ever since, and find it quite comfortable.

    I recently discovered the Treem Hammock method of teathering a set of secondary dog bones low on the trees which completely solves the stability issue.








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  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Wow, 509, thanks for finding that! I had always assumed that the ground would be warmer. If for no other reason than, if going to sleep at 8pm on a pad on the ground, and then a cold front moves in and drops the air temp 20 or 30 degrees(or even if the temp drops simply after the sun sets), that newly colder air will be hindered from getting to the ground under the pad and person laying on it. That still seems reasonable to me, but I would have to sleep on the ground to test it! Or, maybe I could just place a weighted pack on a pad and stick a probe under the pad about a 1/2" into the ground?

    I suspect the above reasoning is still valid, but I(or some one) need to put it to the test. But even if the ground does normally cool off quicker than the air, there is still the factor of air moving under a hammock, which does not happen on the ground. You and I don't much feel wind chill with a pad, but that does not guarantee that it is not hindering the ultimate warmth of a pad a few degrees. I know that it wipes out the warmth of an UQ. So a pad is far superior if wind is going to be able to get to it, compared to an UQ. But I can't say for certain that my pad might not be ultimately warmer with that wind blocked(or on the ground out of the wind) I guess the only way I could test that is to determine the temp at which my pad is just barely adequate in still air, and then add X amount of wind, to see if there is a difference. I'm betting there would be a dif, though far less than with an UQ.

    But thanks for the info that the ground is normally a few degrees colder than the air, now I know! I wonder if that still works under a tarp? I suspect it does not work under a pad.

  3. #13
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    Technically it's not a matter of wind chill but quicker cooling as the wind carries warm air away. Wind chill only applies to the effect on skin.

    I got corrected some month's back when I typed "wind chill" when, in my mind, i really meant "wind effect."

    Just being anal...

  4. #14
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    To me and good underquilt is always warmer and using a pad takes all the comfort away which is why we have the hammock in the first place

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  5. #15
    New Member
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    I am about the newest Of the newbies.

    Last night, on a test run, I used both my UQ and a TR pad (somewhat underinflated). It was real warm. The temp was maybe 35* to 40*.
    I’ve just assumed I would need both, and I was resigned to carrying the extra pound, or so of the pad.
    So, basically, y’all are saying that with my 0* UQ, I wouldn’t need the pad until I get down to10*, 0* or -10*, depending on how warm I sleep?
    Wow! Thank you all for the discussion. This opens up for me a whole new weight savings consideration for everything but December, January and February in the Smokies.

  6. #16
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    I am about the newest Of the newbies.

    Last night, on a test run, I used both my UQ and a TR pad (somewhat underinflated). It was real warm. The temp was maybe 35* to 40*.
    I’ve just assumed I would need both, and I was resigned to carrying the extra pound, or so of the pad.
    So, basically, y’all are saying that with my 0* UQ, I wouldn’t need the pad until I get down to10*, 0* or -10*, depending on how warm I sleep?
    Wow! Thank you all for the discussion. This opens up for me a whole new weight savings consideration for everything but December, January and February in the Smokies.
    Welcome, Rusty! I'd say you are right on, assuming your UQ fits perfectly with no gaps, which is not always the case for every one with every hammock/quilt combo. And assuming wind is well blocked and all down is dry. For example, a zero F rated JRB MW4 has kept me plenty warm at 10F under a JRB bridge hammock, the coldest I have been able to test it at. I think it might have kept me warm at 0F, or a bit below, but I do not know for lack of temps to test it. Also, a JRB MW3, originally rated at 25F, kept me toasty at 25F, in a JRB bridge hammock, sleeping only in cotton PJs. ( also had a JRB down hood). So, for me anyway, I have had no need for pads at or slightly above the rated temps of JRB UQs.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-19-2020 at 00:20.

  7. #17
    New Member
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    10-4, Billy Bob. I understand it is hard to replicate the conditions, especially living, as we do, in the south. Backpacking in the snow in the Smokies in the past, on the ground, I always carried both a TR and a ccf pad (in the old days) (a Z-lite, currently). If I get to go this year and hang, no doubt I’ll take at least one if not both pads which of course will rule out testing just the JRB UQ by itself.
    Shug’s video had a second, pod UQ I believe he said was DIY. I’m real new to hammocks, and I never saw one before. Does anybody sell the pea pods commercially? Might save ounces over having to tote 2 pads.

  8. #18
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    10-4, Billy Bob. I understand it is hard to replicate the conditions, especially living, as we do, in the south. Backpacking in the snow in the Smokies in the past, on the ground, I always carried both a TR and a ccf pad (in the old days) (a Z-lite, currently). If I get to go this year and hang, no doubt I’ll take at least one if not both pads which of course will rule out testing just the JRB UQ by itself.
    Shug’s video had a second, pod UQ I believe he said was DIY. I’m real new to hammocks, and I never saw one before. Does anybody sell the pea pods commercially? Might save ounces over having to tote 2 pads.
    I think you could trust your UQ as it looks like a 0º JRB UQ from reading your info under your moniker. Maybe carry one of the pads for ease of mind but try the UQ without down to 10º or so. You'll be surprised if set up correctly.

    Last night I slept out shooting a new video on pad and UQ combined. This question comes up a lot and I have never really addressed it.
    Used my WL 40º Summer Series UQ along with my Klymit Static V Recon 3/4 pad more inflated than deflated. It has an R-Value of 1.3 so rated to 48ºF. Easier to wrangle a shorter pad. A sleeping pad's R-value measures its capacity to resist heat flow through it, hence the "R". Pads insulate us from the cold ground as I understand it. UQs catch our body warmth and store it as I understand as well. Either way, it is a good thing to be warm and not cold when crawling in to sleep. A good TQ or sleeping bag will really help if trying to stretch out your under-insulation in cold conditions.
    Used my Hammockgear 20º TQ.
    Got down to about 29º and I was really warm and fine and had no condensation. The UQ helps keep the upper arms and shoulders warm.
    Not sure the WL 40º Summer Series UQ would have kept me warm at 29º but adding the pad sure helped.

    Here is my entire Pod System playlist.....https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...h6OeCVQY1WGnXG

    Shug
    Last edited by Shug; 10-20-2020 at 12:19.
    Whooooo Buddy)))) All Secure in Sector Seven

  9. #19
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    10-4, Billy Bob. I understand it is hard to replicate the conditions, especially living, as we do, in the south. Backpacking in the snow in the Smokies in the past, on the ground, I always carried both a TR and a ccf pad (in the old days) (a Z-lite, currently)....
    I forgot to say in previous response, that when testing the MW3 at 25F it was obvious I could have hone lower. How much lower is unknown, but my guess is a minimum of 5 more degrees.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    If I get to go this year and hang, no doubt which of course will rule out testing just the JRB UQ by itself.
    Not if you don't use the pad unless you need it, using it just as backup for emergencies. You can try the UQ alone and see how it goes, the pad is always there for rescue if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyspur View Post
    Shug’s video had a second, pod UQ I believe he said was DIY. I’m real new to hammocks, and I never saw one before. Does anybody sell the pea pods commercially? Might save ounces over having to tote 2 pads.
    Ah yes, the old pod approach. IMO and experience, the most bombproof approach available. Because while maintaining ( for me ) all of the comfort of the UQ and TQ approach, it also maintains the draft free quality of zipped up mummy bags. Now, all of my pod experience was using the no longer made Speer Pea Pod, which encircled my entire hammocks end to end, closing in the middle, over me, with Velcro. To which could be added, top or bottom, pretty much whatever amount of insulation might be needed to go beyond it's rating. Even my head was surrounded by thick down, top and bottom, depending on how much of a vent hole I used, just like a mummy hood. Shug, OTOH, took a DIY approach with a 20F bag he had, which was the right size and zipper config to make it pretty easy to adapt to hammock use, just zipping up around the hammock. Then he added whatever he though was needed inside the pod, both UQ and TQ, to take that rascal to minus 40F or thereabouts. And was plenty warm enough.

    To me the main function of the pod was defeating the drafts that mess so many people up. Nothing can quite match it in that regard. The pod itself doesn't really need to be all that warm, the big benefit from it is that drafts are not going to be sneaking in any surprise gap under you as you change position, or a TQ edge opening up as you move in your sleep. Then if it is not quite warm enough, just add clothing or light quilts to increase the loft however much needed. I sold mine some years ago, probably mostly because I had so much stuff, and found myself going more and more towards bridge and 90º hammocks where it was useless. But I still consider it the most surefire/consistent way of being warm in a gathered end hammock that I ever tried. Sadly, Speer left the business and sold to TTTG, and then TTTG left the business as well a few years later. And since then, there have been no commercial Pea Pods available. But with some experimenting, a DIY approach is quite possible.

  10. #20
    New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shug View Post
    I think you could trust your UQ as it looks like a 0º JRB UQ from reading your info under your moniker. Maybe carry one of the pads for ease of mind but try the UQ without down to 10º or so. You'll be surprised if set up correctly.

    Last night I slept out shooting a new video on pad and UQ combined. This question comes up a lot and I have never really addressed it.
    Used my WL 40º Summer Series UQ along with my Klymit Static V Recon 3/4 pad more inflated than deflated. It has an R-Value of 1.3 so rated to 48ºF. Easier to wrangle a shorter pad. A sleeping pad's R-value measures its capacity to resist heat flow through it, hence the "R". Pads insulate us from the cold ground as I understand it. UQs catch our body warmth and store it as I understand as well. Either way, it is a good thing to be warm and not cold when crawling in to sleep. A good TQ or sleeping bag will really help if trying to stretch out your under-insulation in cold conditions.
    Used my Hammockgear 20º TQ.
    Got down to about 29º and I was really warm and fine and had no condensation. The UQ helps keep the upper arms and shoulders warm.
    Not sure the WL 40º Summer Series UQ would have kept me warm at 29º but adding the pad sure helped.

    Here is my entire Pod System playlist.....https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...h6OeCVQY1WGnXG

    Shug
    10-4, Shug. Thank you for the feedback. Saturday night I used a TR Prolite Women's Pad maybe 2.5 R value which at 66" is longer than a 3/4 pad, but maybe a little easier to slip between the 2 bottom layers of the chameleon than a full length pad.
    It's obvious I need to get outside at night more to experience different combinations at lower temps to get a better feel as to what will work for me. I have found that the older I get, the colder I sleep. I don't know if that's me or just old age.:-) At the same time, I have tried a lot harder the past couple of years to cut ounces wherever I can, and any weight savings I can find sure make the walk more fun.
    Over the past couple of weeks, I've taken time to watch several of your videos, and they have all been super helpful. I sure appreciate you taking the time and effort to make those and put them out there for hammock newbies like me to learn from!

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