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  1. #1
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    Cold Underside - Some Questions & Hopefully Answers

    Last weekend, I went camping in the woods. Got down to 24F overnight (that's real temperature, not counting any light wind robbing me from underneath that likely would have made it colder). I did "pretty good" overall but suffered occasionally spots of coldness underneath. I'm looking for inspiration on how to improve things here... BTW, 49 year old male, 5'10 and about 170-175 lbs.

    My Setup:
    * Tarp: Winter Palace. It was strung with about a 12 inch gap to the ground. I could have tucked it closer - not sure how much that would help. I also used spreader poles on top to get a bit more space between the tarp and the layers below it.
    * Hammock: 11' Dreamhammock Sparrow. 2 Layer with Winter Cover.
    * Winter Sock: Warbonnet. Added another layer to internal climate here
    * Underquilt: HG 20 degree Incubator
    * Topquilt: EE 20 degree enigma
    * Middle Layer: Not sure if that's right phrase there but also used a Sea to Summit Reactor liner that I wiggled into
    * Clothing: Merino wool 200 leggings and shirt + synthetic light weight coat, stocking gap, buff around neck. Feet had down booties.
    * Bonus Items: I put an old self-inflating pad (about 1/2 filled) in between the 2 layers of the hammock and a 16 inch wide sheet of reflectix.

    I thought the pad was worthless. I never could tell when I was on it. The reflectix was great (at times) but 16 inches was just too narrow for a side-sleeper and I felt like I was struggling to 'stay on it'. Between the pad and the reflectix, I thought I might be infringing on the UQ setup and breaking the seal partially on the UQ. Around 6am, I tossed both the pad and the reflectix out of the rig and only used the UQ and felt like I was warmer than when I tried to stack everything but I only laid there for another 10-20 minutes before getting up to break camp. The UQ was only rated to 20F which is why I was trying to stack things to get a more cozy environment.

    So, I guess my question is - as I know I have some more cold weather hammocking coming up and its likely to be colder than before. As its car-camping oriented, I can bring extra gear and 'play around' with it... and even make some modifications between night 1 and night 2.
    1) Anyone have any suggestions for using a reflectix pad inside a hammock (stuck between layers) AND using an underquilt? I can use one 24 inches in width or even combine 2 of the 16's to make a 32 inch width. This would be in series with the UQ, not by itself.
    2) Is an underquilt protector basically going to do the same thing as a winter sock? (just not as good as it doesn't do the top side)
    3) Is it possible to "stack" underquilts? I have an older one (DIY) that I could put in series with the Incubator
    4) Hot Water Nalgene - any suggestions here in a hammock? I've done it for tenting but for hammocking, not 100% sure (other than put it in a ziplock and an old wool sock)
    5) Should I try and snug the tarp closer to the ground? Does it really help if there is no noticeable wind? (ie, < 10 mph)
    6) Should I ditch the spreader bars on the top of the tarp so it doesn't create as large of a space? (Might make contact with the winter sock)

    Anything I'm missing here? Thanks!

  2. #2
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    I think try to trust your 20º UQ and skip the reflectix at this time.
    Get a good and proper set-up on the UQ.

    Yes, you can stack UQs.....

    Shug




    Whooooo Buddy)))) All Secure in Sector Seven

  3. #3
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're doing almost everything right and asking the right questions. Yes, you can stack underquilts, and that's a better solution than putting pads or reflectix underneath you, IMO - dangers of condensation. Did you have CBS or just cold around the edges? Use the hot water Nalgene, and put it in a ziplock bag until you're sure it doesn't leak (many trips in the future). A sock is better than an underquilt protector, I think. Even light breezes move air, just not as fast. Keep the tarp high. Did you have condensation on the underside? Waking up cold and wet or being showered on when you get up and bump the tarp is no fun. Eat something before you go to bed, also maybe exercise (go far enough downhill to write your name in the snow before bedtime that you generate some heat in your extremities when you climb back up. Lastly (or firstly) make a game of finding the perfect campsite - notice clumps of vegetation, landforms, and wind direction (as well as widowmakers). You probably already know all of this. Just put it all together. It's very satisfying to get it right. Good luck.

  4. #4
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    I would have to agree with others, lose everything but your underquits...stack if you want but don't use the pad. I would also add in the hot water bottle because you can use it or not as you need to. I use a zip lock freezer bag and wool sock on mine.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member goobie's Avatar
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    "The UQ was only rated to 20F...."

    An incubator, in my experience, has no problem keeping you warm to it's rating....and a bit beyond. That, of course, is assuming it's properly setup. Most don't get the UQ even close to snug enough on the hammock. You had a sock too? And an overcover on the hammock?!? There's more warmth there, condensation would be my concern.

    If I was using your gear, I would ditch the overcover and keep the sock. Cut up that reflectix into cozies for your cook kit and water bottles. Stack your diy UQ, loosely, over the incubator. Pitch at least the windward side of the tarp low, porch mode the other side if you want since your sock will retain more heat anyways. Yes, use the poles on the tarp. There's no reason not to.

    Sleep clothes. Less is more when it comes to what you're sleeping in. Get your body heat into your quilts, that's how you stay warm. Dedicated sleep gear in winter, don't home all day then sleep in those same clothes no matter how dry you think they are from hanging out around the fire. This includes socks too! Get a size larger than you normally wear and use them only for sleeping. Same thing with your hat.

    Good luck, keep at it. Through experience you'll figure out what works for YOU!

  6. #6
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    This could be a sticky. Do everything that everybody suggests. Good point about the clothes, Goobie. I confess I sometimes skip that, but I know from experience that I shouldn't. If it's really cold, I always wear dedicated sleep clothing. Besides, that step - getting naked to put on cold silk long johns - builds character, and the chill is gone before you know it.

  7. #7
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    LOL! I told my wife about this thread, and she said I'd better open my birthday present a couple of weeks early - new silk tops and bottoms! I swallowed hard and said, "Wow, thanks! Let's send them back and get a size larger." (Manufacturers are stingy with their silk fabric, I've noticed.) This way they should be here in time for some trail work planned at the end of March. I shiver with anticipation.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by goobie View Post
    ...

    Sleep clothes. Less is more when it comes to what you're sleeping in. Get your body heat into your quilts, that's how you stay warm. Dedicated sleep gear in winter, don't home all day then sleep in those same clothes no matter how dry you think they are from hanging out around the fire. This includes socks too! Get a size larger than you normally wear and use them only for sleeping. Same thing with your hat.

    ...
    I mostly agree...

    Dedicated sleepware makes total sense. But it can be insulation too if done properly. The "trick" is to only wear things that don't hold moisture or restrict circulation, .e.g. socks that are snug. Yes, less can be more.

    There is no "get(ting) your body heat into your quilts." Insulation, specifically quilts, is/are used to retard heat loss, not absorb heat.

    My final point is that we need to get past calling trapped perspiration "condensation." The moisture that accumulates between body and a pad is perspiration that can't disperse/evaporate. Perspiration exits our bodies in liquid form, not in a gaseous state. But I agree that socks and overcovers can definitely end up with true condensation on them.

  9. #9
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    Thanks everyone (especially Shug - videos were great, the 2nd one was exactly what I was wondering). Tying the jacket at the footend and using a small sit pad... going to have to experiment again! More camping, more better!

    On this past trip... cold areas were isolated to a few spots and only occasionally. I was good down when it was 30 degrees until maybe 4 or 4:30 in the morning when it dropped down to 25. That's when I woke up and found some cold spots that seemed to be either my feet, butt or shoulder - depending on what fell off the relfectix pad. I suspect (and the videos seemed to indicate that as well) that once I ditched those, then my body heat warmed up the underquilt (as it was supposed to).

    Doubling up on the underquilts on next trip sounds like the way to go - and I can bring it and add it last minute too. Probably a silly question but I do have an old piece of that blue cell foam that everyone has buried in a closet somewhere from ages past. It started as a 5 foot piece but has been cut down over time for various DIY projects and now is just a small sit pad maybe 20" x 20" or so. Would that work? I don't know how good the insulation is but I suppose I could sit on it outside and see if my butt gets cold. If it does, doubt it would work for my feet in a hammock, right?

    As for the reflectix itself, the guide recommended it as part of the layering system for ground dwellers (which is why I tried to convert it into the hammock). I'm glad I tried it and there are some definite advantages of experimenting, but seems like ditching it in the future and instead using other items would be better. As for sweaty, no - didn't wake up with any condensation, frost or sweat on me. The tarp was also bone-dry. I still hung everything in the basement to "dry out dampness" as a natural precaution. Some of the other people that went with us that were ground dwellers, had wet tarps and wet tents though so something must have worked right for me. Again though, I had the hammock winter cover, winter sock and then the tarp and I tried to set it up such that the winter sock and tarp did not touch. The winter cover and winter sock had to touch... no choices there.

    Again thanks!

    BTW, the winter sock combined with everything else made the "climate" inside the hammock rig nice and toasty. Even though it was 25 outside, I'm estimating maybe 50 degrees inside the hammock area. Next time I'll hang a thermometer in there.

  10. #10
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    Keep at it Unicorn. It will be worth it.

    I understand what TominMN is saying. I thought the same way also until I ran into a 14 degree night wearing a 3 layers of Polypro tops bottoms. 2 layers were light weight and the top layer was a midweight.

    I got cold that night. Came back here, read a lot of posts on the less is best theory and went back out in the same conditions ( 14 degree night ). That time I wore only the 2 lightweight layers top/bottom. I used the same stacked setup and was more than toasty warm.

    That was last year. Since then Ive gone with the less is best scenario and havent been cold at all. Not sure why it works but it does. If I had to guess, Id say that the lighter setup allows more body heat to enter the air space between your body and the quilts. As TominMn says I think the quilts then take over and insulate that heat and keep it from escaping out the hammock. So instead of a sleeping bag protecting you/warming you from the outside air temp, the quilts hold the heat inside the dead air space, warming the quilts from the inside out.

    I am not scientist so take this with a grain of salt.

    Dont give up. Youll figure it out and it will be bliss.

    If you can attend a get together, glean from the experienced. It shortens the learning curve.

    Have fun.

    Bob

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