Cold Underside - Some Questions & Hopefully Answers

[unicornv007]

Hey Unicorn, that is good news! A stacked 20F + 40F UQ ought to be good to about minus 10(without looking it up) assuming both meet their temp ratings and all is adjusted well. So, you were toasty at 10F? Bingo! Stacking/layering(whether with quilts or HH Super Shelters or Peapods or clothing) has always worked as advertised for me, and sounds like you have it dialed in for you!

I am still baffled why adding that layer known as a pad was worthless for you back then, I guess we will never know. But, good going on keeping warm at 10F below!

Actually, back in 2021, I *did* take it down to -10F (not 10F). The stacked underquilts worked exceedingly well, especially with the winter sock. As I had a nearby cabin to retreat to if things went poorly, I "gave it a shot" and was surprised at how well it worked. Many of the tenters "froze" that night.

What didn't work was trying to stack with a pad on one of the earlier trips. I'm not exactly sure why though. I never have had luck with a sleeping pad. I actually started my hammocking "career" with underquilts from day 1 (borrowed, later made my own out of older gear and then finally just bit the bullet and bought good quality ones). I had hoped to get comfortable with sleeping pads so I could flex with AT Shelter system as well as using my hammock based on my mood. I've tried different width pads (20 inches and 25 inches) but both provided 'gaps' at the shoulders. Maybe a wider topquilt would address that... I've experimented maybe a handful of times but always given up and tossed it out of my rig and added the underquilt part way through the night in frustration. My pads are 6' long so that may have been a problem but I never have tried a shorter one (I could swipe my wife's and try but then its a shorter pad and that would make going to ground rougher)... and of course, I'm not exactly sure if using her sleeping pad would be "safe" for me (she mama-bears her gear and is pretty protective of it *laugh*). I've tried playing with the amount of air in the pad as well. It was also the reason I ended up getting a 2 layer hammock in hopes of keeping it in one spot. It just didn't work... and when I tried stacking it with the underquilt it was definitely worse as I couldn't get a good seal with the underquilt (mostly on the sides if I remember correctly but could have been head/feet too).

Considering I'm currently setup in the basement and there are quite a few good videos out there though, maybe I'll try one last time to toss a pad in there and see how it works. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful though on the air matress pad The Reflectix pad definitely was a 'no go' on the 1 attempt I used it for. It robbed all the heat that would go into the underquilt and also made me damp... again, defeating the purpose. Either way, for hiking trips down along paths with shelters, I'm either at hammocks/underquilts *only* or just carrying a spare (but light) pad in case I want to use the shelters. Considering I got to experience both shelters *and* hammocking along the AT back in May/June this year, I can safely say though, I'd much prefer to stay in my hammock 99% of the time. That 1% would be severe wind/thunderstorms where I might want a little more security around me. Just felt lousy on a sleeping pad in the wooden shelter and like my body hadn't recovered from hiking... where a night in the hammock, I'm good to go the next day (assuming I get the temperature thing right).

[BillyBob58]

Unicorn: Yeah I saw that -10F, that is what I meant by "good going on keeping warm at 10F below!" (as in "below zero). I should have said "-10F" or "minus 10F".
I can definitely see why you would give up on a pad, whether used alone or to augment an UQ not up to conditions. Lots of folks feel the same as you. I myself have only rarely used pads over my 17 years as a hanger. Back in my 1st year, before I had any form of UQ, I got something called a Segmented Pad Extender(SPE) made by Speer hammocks. At that time, I was still struggling with(learning) how to get full potential out of my HH Supershelter(HHSS, a form of pad, but open cell foam which wrapped around me like a quilt). So I wanted to try this in my Speer single layer hammock. I did not have a winter pad, and the forecast was for below 20F. But I had 2 not so warm pads, a Thermarest UL self inflating torso length rate 2.6R(maybe good to 44F or so?) and a full length Thermarest closed cell foam pad (RidgeRest?) also rated 2.6R. The SPE allowed me to stack them so total R value maybe 5.2, definitely winter rating. I was so warm (toasty for the 1st time) that I was able to use my winter bag as a TQ for the 1st time, rather than zipping up in the mummy bag and it's hood. And I was pretty comfy and had no sweat/condensation issues. That was the last time I used a pad in winter.

I suppose I did use a pad a of sorts, with my HHSS. It's pad was a pre formed super flexible open cell foam that was OUTSIDE the hammock, supported by a custom shaped under cover with elastics which hugged it right up and around my body. It was great, but not what most folks think of when they say "pad". I used it without problems, on and off, for years.

I would use a torso length pad in the pad pocket of my original JRB bridge hammock, but only during warmer weather. I would start off with nothing under me, just hammock. Typically, about 5AM, I would wake up a bit chilled. I'd get up to pee, and place that 20" wide cut down WM blue pad into the pad pocket, hop back in and be instantly warm. Then sleep for another few hours. Also, I used to sometimes put that same pad inside my Speer Pea Pod which surrounded my hammock, when temps were below the rating. Always worked great.

But, 95% of the time over the years, I have used various forms and brands of UQs to be toasty warm. From torso length WB Yeti(with pad under my legs/feet) to full length JRB MWs or shorter Greylocks, or for several years either the HHSS or the fantastic Speer Pea Pod(essentially a combo TQ/UQ which wrapped around the entire hammock end to end). They all worked great for me, better than their temp ratings. (Oh, not to forget: now the Superior gear Insulated hammock, love it!).

I forgot one other pad use: in my 90º hammock's pad pocket. Worked fantastic. I think most people are fine with pads in bridge or 90º hammocks, but most hate them in gathered end(GE) hammocks. I did OK with them- in a GE - that one time. In fact, way better than OK. But, I think that makes me a rarity. Sounds to me like you are one of the UQ only gang, which is a very large group! I'm glad you worked it out!

[unicornv007]

I was researching a bit yesterday afternoon and ran across the Speer's Segmented Pad Extender. Couldn't find a link anywhere to order one though the description seemed reasonable to make one if I wanted to give it another try. I could also try using a sleeping bag with a pad as that may keep the shoulder's covered better. That kind of kills weight savings though and turns it into a "shoulda just brought a spare sleeping pad and be done with it"... trading off on weight penalities.

I do have a few smaller sections of closed cell foam that I bring. Usually, I'm carrying an 18"x12" section which is perfect for me to sit on and also addresses feet cold spots that may crop up. Its small enough that it fits in the footbox and doesn't get dislodged while I'm sleeping. I do have a larger piece (20x24") but that's almost too big and I haven't found a need for it. If anything, I'd rather carry 2 of the smaller 18x12 sections than 1 bigger section. That being said, maybe that is the answer for me - 3-4 closed cell foam pieces that would work with going to ground (if I have to) but also would nest inside the hammock well enough to address cold spots. Not sure that would be terribly comfortable on those wooden platforms overnight but might be OK for a night or two when really bad weather hits and only be a few oz of weight penalty while also permitting me to use just my 20F quilt and squeak it under that temperature a bit.

[BillyBob58]

I was researching a bit yesterday afternoon and ran across the Speer's Segmented Pad Extender. Couldn't find a link anywhere to order one though the description seemed reasonable to make one if I wanted to give it another try. I could also try using a sleeping bag with a pad as that may keep the shoulder's covered better. That kind of kills weight savings though and turns it into a "shoulda just brought a spare sleeping pad and be done with it"... trading off on weight penalities.

I do have a few smaller sections of closed cell foam that I bring. Usually, I'm carrying an 18"x12" section which is perfect for me to sit on and also addresses feet cold spots that may crop up. Its small enough that it fits in the footbox and doesn't get dislodged while I'm sleeping. I do have a larger piece (20x24") but that's almost too big and I haven't found a need for it. If anything, I'd rather carry 2 of the smaller 18x12 sections than 1 bigger section. That being said, maybe that is the answer for me - 3-4 closed cell foam pieces that would work with going to ground (if I have to) but also would nest inside the hammock well enough to address cold spots. Not sure that would be terribly comfortable on those wooden platforms overnight but might be OK for a night or two when really bad weather hits and only be a few oz of weight penalty while also permitting me to use just my 20F quilt and squeak it under that temperature a bit.

"Couldn't find a link anywhere to order one ". My bad, Bro, I should have mentioned that Speer has been out of business for many years now. Which for me personally is a real shame since he made some super quality and functional products. He wrote the 1st book on hammock camping that taught me how. I still have my Speer SPE and hammocks! But like a moron, I sold my Speer Pea Pod, which I thought was about the most efficient way to stay warm in a hammock that I ever tried, and I've tried a bunch! In my defense, I had intended to buy one from another highly esteemed vendor here, the guy (Dale?) who made the Switchback hammocks(Yep, got one of those as well). When Speer went out of business(I heard he went back to being a geologist I think), this other company took over making most of his products. While I kept putting it off, and trying to decide between a Pea Pod and a Polar Pod, lo and behold he goes out of business as well! Oh well, I have begun to suspect that my Superior gear, particularly with the "Cocoon" option, is almost a match to the Speer in bombproof warmth. But, maybe not quite as versatile. Close though. Good enough.

"That being said, maybe that is the answer for me - 3-4 closed cell foam pieces that would work with going to ground (if I have to) but also would nest inside the hammock well enough to address cold spots.". Yes! Here is a trick that might help you someday, in case you don't already know. Often times when an UQ is not getting the job done, it is a small area of the body that is suffering from the cold spot. The butt, an elbow or knee, a foot. In these cases a very small piece of CCF stuffed into the pants or shirt on the offending spot can absolutely save the day. With virtually none of the comfort problems that people usually complain about re: pads. And 1 or 2 of these small pads(small enough to fit in a jacket sleeve at the elbow or shoulder, a bit bigger for most butts) is near weightless. Of course, for a shelter floor, you will need something bigger.

[unicornv007]

"Couldn't find a link anywhere to order one ". My bad, Bro, I should have mentioned that Speer has been out of business for many years now. Which for me personally is a real shame since he made some super quality and functional products. He wrote the 1st book on hammock camping that taught me how. I still have my Speer SPE and hammocks! But like a moron, I sold my Speer Pea Pod, which I thought was about the most efficient way to stay warm in a hammock that I ever tried, and I've tried a bunch! In my defense, I had intended to buy one from another highly esteemed vendor here, the guy (Dale?) who made the Switchback hammocks(Yep, got one of those as well). When Speer went out of business(I heard he went back to being a geologist I think), this other company took over making most of his products. While I kept putting it off, and trying to decide between a Pea Pod and a Polar Pod, lo and behold he goes out of business as well! Oh well, I have begun to suspect that my Superior gear, particularly with the "Cocoon" option, is almost a match to the Speer in bombproof warmth. But, maybe not quite as versatile. Close though. Good enough.

"That being said, maybe that is the answer for me - 3-4 closed cell foam pieces that would work with going to ground (if I have to) but also would nest inside the hammock well enough to address cold spots.". Yes! Here is a trick that might help you someday, in case you don't already know. Often times when an UQ is not getting the job done, it is a small area of the body that is suffering from the cold spot. The butt, an elbow or knee, a foot. In these cases a very small piece of CCF stuffed into the pants or shirt on the offending spot can absolutely save the day. With virtually none of the comfort problems that people usually complain about re: pads. And 1 or 2 of these small pads(small enough to fit in a jacket sleeve at the elbow or shoulder, a bit bigger for most butts) is near weightless. Of course, for a shelter floor, you will need something bigger.

Bummer about Speer SPE. It did show how to make one and it looks like there is at least one other one on the market (but it weighs about 1/2 a pound). As for the closed cell foam pads, I usually only take 1 for sitting on rocks, benches, stumps... and as a footbox warmer in my rig. I also use it to fan flames on a dying campfire and it kicks them back up fast - way better than me just blowing on it. My backpacking kit has one in it for regular use... but only 1. I'm going to have to experiment and see if a larger one would work just as well or maybe consider that 2-3 smaller ones for going to ground / shelter.

BTW, I did move it go the small of my back over last weekend but then my feet froze. As I originally said, it was a *really* tough night. Definitely self inflicted but hey, it turned out all right so far. I know more.

As a last update (hopefully!) yesterday afternoon I did manage to rehang my hammock outside. I took extra time to verify the hang was good (I had been getting sloppy over the last year - my ridgeline had been having significant droop before I even sat in it). I then hung the underquilt and made sure it was about a foot up from the bottom of the hammock. Cinched the end baffles down a little but not too tight and climbed in. It really was a lot warmer now. Sure, it was almost 50 degrees (but last weekend was 45 degrees so reasonably comparable). No closed cell pad needed for my feet. I "hung out" for maybe 20-30 minutes. Hot! Toasty Warm! T-Shirt and jeans only. I checked with my fist as well - the underquilt was touching the bottom of the hammock underneath me as well as down by my legs. It also wasn't overly crushed on the outside (ie, overstretched). Anyway, no cold spots. I know this is definitely better than I had been doing because I really had to be careful now to not just sit in the underquilt but instead in the hammock when climbing in. In the past, it was very easy to just sit in the hammock without getting the two mixed up. I'm pretty sure that previously, the underquilt was hanging too low (only a few inches above the hammock) and I had been trying to compensate for the heat loss by overtightening the battles. While this worked in fair weather, I'd still get a few cold spots and it pinched the ends of the hammock such that my feet would typically pop off overnight when I would roll (unconsciously) from side sleeping to being on my back. The back being warmer and the feet being covered really seem like a big difference.

[unicornv007]

I update because hey, someone may be able to learn from my experiences. This past weekend was another chance to give it a whirl. Friday night temp down to low 40's... Saturday night temp down to low 30's (but not freezing). The setup was similar to most of the others: 2-Layer Sparrow with a winter cover, Superfly tarp, 20F EE Enigma, Sea-to-Summit Thermal Reactor liner and a 20F Incubator. Also had a pair of closed cell foam pads, each one about 12" x 16". My clothing was a long-sleeve light shirt, fleece vest, fleece pants and thicker wool socks.

I also studied the videos as I mentioned in my last update. The UQ was strung about a foot above the bottom of the hammock - maybe 5 inches below the ridgeline.

Night one - slept solid and was warm. Never needed a hat and was good all night. Toward morning, I did fiddle with the baffle cinch cord but I think that was because I had a phantom cold spot in my upper back. It was time to get up and I had slept from 11pm to almost 7am without moving. I only used one of the two closed cell foam pads for the night - it was tucked into the bottom of my liner and used for my feet. I don't think I *had* to use it, but I felt comfortable that way so kept it. Its what I usually do with it when backpacking even in the summer.

Night two - slept almost as good. Same configuration but I did start with a fleece sweatshirt and stocking cap. After about 10-15 minutes in the rig, I had to shed the sweatshirt. I was just too warm. I did keep the stocking cap as it was about 10 degrees cooler. Woke up once around 2am to drain the bladder but fell back to sleep. Woke up around 5am and I definitely had a cold spot in the middle of my back. Not a terrible one, but enough that I was a bit uncomfortable. This was a 20F incubator with a few oz of overstuff but I was running it around 33-35F. I read other threads that discuss planning for about 10F warmer than you plan on sleeping at so I might have been closing on this threashold. As I had two small closed-cell foam pads, I just snatched the second one that I had up in my peak shelf and put it under my back. Boom. Out like a light for another 2 hours. I feel like I'd still be sleeping there if one of the other people on the trip hadn't woken me up to get going. BTW, as this was a timechange night, this would have actually been like sleeping in to 8am... unheard of for a guy who gets up between 6 to 6:30 just about every day for the last decade.

Lessons I've taken away from all this:
1) Stringing underquilt up higher really resolved about 95% of my issues.
2) Closed cell foam pads. Having one in fall temperatures is good for the feet. For colder temperatures, having 2 is the way to go for me. Each one was only about 45g of weight so taking 2 for a winter backpacking trip shouldn't be a huge problem. They also make good sitting pads and work well to fan campfires.

I'll have another round to play in late January for true winter camping but I'll be taking both underquilts and using a wintersock.

[Shug]

I update because hey, someone may be able to learn from my experiences. This past weekend was another chance to give it a whirl. Friday night temp down to low 40's... Saturday night temp down to low 30's (but not freezing). The setup was similar to most of the others: 2-Layer Sparrow with a winter cover, Superfly tarp, 20F EE Enigma, Sea-to-Summit Thermal Reactor liner and a 20F Incubator. Also had a pair of closed cell foam pads, each one about 12" x 16". My clothing was a long-sleeve light shirt, fleece vest, fleece pants and thicker wool socks.

I also studied the videos as I mentioned in my last update. The UQ was strung about a foot above the bottom of the hammock - maybe 5 inches below the ridgeline.

Night one - slept solid and was warm. Never needed a hat and was good all night. Toward morning, I did fiddle with the baffle cinch cord but I think that was because I had a phantom cold spot in my upper back. It was time to get up and I had slept from 11pm to almost 7am without moving. I only used one of the two closed cell foam pads for the night - it was tucked into the bottom of my liner and used for my feet. I don't think I *had* to use it, but I felt comfortable that way so kept it. Its what I usually do with it when backpacking even in the summer.

Night two - slept almost as good. Same configuration but I did start with a fleece sweatshirt and stocking cap. After about 10-15 minutes in the rig, I had to shed the sweatshirt. I was just too warm. I did keep the stocking cap as it was about 10 degrees cooler. Woke up once around 2am to drain the bladder but fell back to sleep. Woke up around 5am and I definitely had a cold spot in the middle of my back. Not a terrible one, but enough that I was a bit uncomfortable. This was a 20F incubator with a few oz of overstuff but I was running it around 33-35F. I read other threads that discuss planning for about 10F warmer than you plan on sleeping at so I might have been closing on this threashold. As I had two small closed-cell foam pads, I just snatched the second one that I had up in my peak shelf and put it under my back. Boom. Out like a light for another 2 hours. I feel like I'd still be sleeping there if one of the other people on the trip hadn't woken me up to get going. BTW, as this was a timechange night, this would have actually been like sleeping in to 8am... unheard of for a guy who gets up between 6 to 6:30 just about every day for the last decade.

Lessons I've taken away from all this:
1) Stringing underquilt up higher really resolved about 95% of my issues.
2) Closed cell foam pads. Having one in fall temperatures is good for the feet. For colder temperatures, having 2 is the way to go for me. Each one was only about 45g of weight so taking 2 for a winter backpacking trip shouldn't be a huge problem. They also make good sitting pads and work well to fan campfires.

I'll have another round to play in late January for true winter camping but I'll be taking both underquilts and using a wintersock.

I so enjoy a right goodie of an "I snoozed warm" report.
Your patience and resolve is paying off.
Shug

[BillyBob58]

Unicorn: " As I had two small closed-cell foam pads, I just snatched the second one that I had up in my peak shelf and put it under my back. Boom. Out like a light for another 2 hours. I feel like I'd still be sleeping there if one of the other people on the trip hadn't woken me up to get going. BTW, as this was a timechange night, this would have actually been like sleeping in to 8am... unheard of for a guy who gets up between 6 to 6:30 just about every day for the last decade.
Lessons I've taken away from all this:
1) Stringing underquilt up higher really resolved about 95% of my issues.
2) Closed cell foam pads. Having one in fall temperatures is good for the feet. For colder temperatures, having 2 is the way to go for me. Each one was only about 45g of weight so taking 2 for a winter backpacking trip shouldn't be a huge problem. They also make good sitting pads and work well to fan campfires.
I'll have another round to play in late January for true winter camping but I'll be taking both underquilts and using a wintersock. "

Yay! Well, it has taken a bit over 3 years, but I am pleased to notice that you have come full circle and joined my camp(we are a lonely group.
"Boom. Out like a light for another 2 hours. " is a long way from "I thought the pad was worthless. I never could tell when I was on it.", is it not? Welcome to the club! (it is a pretty small club, so it is always fun to add a member. Layering with pads can be a life saver, even if one prefers to not use pads normally or at least not for full body insulation(as opposed to say just for legs/feet or smaller cold spot). Over my 16+ years here, I have not seen many converts. Most continue to hate pads in hammocks, and would rather carry and stack an entire additional UQ than have to deal with them. To each his own, and whatever works, but glad I am no longer(in your case) having to scratch my head about why a pad was totally worthless.

It appears now you have entered a place(mentioned before) I was in for a number of years using my 2007 model JRB bridge hammock. Whatever time of year it was down south, a bit too warm to use much of anything for insulation. But about 0400 to 0500, I'd wake up with some cold spots, back and butt mainly. No problem. Get up to pee, slide the handy cut down piece of WM blue pad(torso sized) into the JRB hammock's pad pocket, and pass out again until the sun was well up in the sky. Toasty warm. No condensation, no perspiration/sweat. Then get up and join my wife in the RV for morning coffee and breakfast, or both of us join the nearby kids and grandkids in their RV. Those were good times, and that method of keeping warm(when it was not cold to start with at bed time) could not have been more simple or bombproof. Even if I had overheated and sweated a bit on my back, that would not have hurt the pad insulation, and I would have still been warm enough.

Congrats on your pad success. Don't forget something I think I mentioned way back: for small cold spots, small cut down pieces of CCF tucked into a shirt sleeve(elbow, shoulder) or pant leg or wherever can be an absolute night saver. Or a slightly larger piece tucked into the clothing you are sleeping in, wherever the cold spot is, i.e. the butt.

[unicornv007]

To be fair, I'm still mostly in the "pad doesn't work for me" camp. Sorry there... the blow-up air pad just doesn't work for me. I can't seem to figure that one out - but it'll be a question I have next fall when I (hopefully) attend a Group Hang. The closed cell foam pads are really just two small pieces... like 12x16 inches each. One always is in my footbox. This time I had a second one. They are small enough not to break the UQ seal... (if that is a thing).

[BillyBob58]

To be fair, I'm still mostly in the "pad doesn't work for me" camp. Sorry there... the blow-up air pad just doesn't work for me. I can't seem to figure that one out - but it'll be a question I have next fall when I (hopefully) attend a Group Hang. The closed cell foam pads are really just two small pieces... like 12x16 inches each. One always is in my footbox. This time I had a second one. They are small enough not to break the UQ seal... (if that is a thing).

No need to be sorry, it either works(for you) or it doesn't. And a blow up pad, especially a full length pad, can be a different ball game form a CCF pad, especially small pads placed strategically. Of course, I can't tell you which camp you are in, you obviously know better than me! Still, if ""Boom. Out like a light for another 2 hours. " and "One always is in my footbox. This time I had a second one. They are small enough not to break the UQ seal... (if that is a thing).", it seems to me you are obviously having some success using pads to make up for occassional problems with UQs. And yes, I think "small enough not to break the UQ seal" is a thing. Probably. But all that matters is that you have found an approach that works for you.

I don't really know why I advocate in favor of pads(much like I used to advocate for the HH Super Shelter with it's wrap around open cell foam pad outside the hammock). Except in my 90º hammock with it's pad pocket, I have not used or needed one in years. (but boy does a pad work well in that one hammock! Also pretty well in my bridge hammocks ) Actually, the last time I used one in any form was in the TQ foot box, because I lacked confidence of my SG Insulated 30F hammock at well below 30F, plus additional wind chill. But, after a couple of hours, I woke up significantly over heating and about to start sweating. So I had to remove that foot pad and some other layers including my hood. But, though I always have them as an emergency back up, I rarely use pads.