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  1. #11

    Join Date
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    I concur with the advice to ditch the pad / Reflectix.

    One other comment is me just repeating something I saw JustBill post on another social media platform -- he recommended stacking top quilts versus underquilts. He said the extra heat would be driven down into the underquilt and trapped there, giving you more warmth top and bottom. No personal experience with this but it might be worth a try. And easier to accomplish than stacking underquilts.

  2. #12
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TominMN View Post
    My final point is that we need to get past calling trapped perspiration "condensation." The moisture that accumulates between body and a pad is perspiration that can't disperse/evaporate. Perspiration exits our bodies in liquid form, not in a gaseous state. But I agree that socks and overcovers can definitely end up with true condensation on them.
    I disagree. Condensation is condensation. Just a quick Google confirms that:

    https://www.wonderopolis.org/wonder/...when-it-s-cold

    "When you exhale (breathe out), your breath also contains moisture. Because your mouth and lungs are moist, each breath you exhale contains a little bit of water in the form of water vapor (the gas form of water).

    "For water to stay a gas in the form of water vapor, it needs enough energy to keep its molecules moving. Inside your lungs where it's nice and warm, this isn't a problem.

    "When you exhale and it's cold outside, though, the water vapor in your breath loses its energy quickly. Rather than continuing to move freely, the molecules begin to pack themselves closely together. As they do so, they slow down and begin to change into either liquid or solid forms of water.

    "This scientific process is called condensation. When you exhale when it's cold outside, the water vapor in your breath condenses into lots of tiny droplets of liquid water and ice (solid water) that you can see in the air as a cloud, similar to fog.

    "When it's warm out, though, the invisible water vapor gas stays invisible, because the warm air provides energy that allows the water vapor to remain a gas. As temperatures drop, it's more likely that you'll be able to see your breath."

    Or here:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwic...-oddest-reason


    And this:

    https://www.quora.com/How-much-water...ough-breathing

    "Water loss due to respiration plus water loss due to perspiration together are referred to as "insensible water loss" and must be figured into fluid replacement calculations when patients are not taking p.o. fluids (not taking fluid by mouth). For the average 70 kg man, it has been measured to be 400 ml due to respiration and 400 ml due to perspiration per 24 hour period of time."

    So, in conclusion, it's not all trapped "perspiration." Not even close. When you exhale, there is water vapor, and if it's cold, it condenses. If you're inside a hammock, the water vapor will condense on your quilts, your pads, your hammock, and your bugnet.

    And then you've also got persipiration gathering on those pads, in addition to the condensation!
    Last edited by SilvrSurfr; 03-01-2020 at 22:50.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #13
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    Not going to add too much more to this other than to offer you a vote of confidence and suggest ditching most of the extra stuff and stick with the quilts. Less can be more!!

    I regularly take my HG 20's into the teens with only leggings, possum down socks, a long sleeve shirt and balaclava (down puffy if it's particularly chilly), and I don't sleep hot. All the other items you're adding are adding more complication than insulation. Concentrate on getting your quilts positioned properly. Shug vid's are your best resource for that.

    Loose oversized socks are key and make sure they are dry... I struggled with this for a long time and once I went with loose fitting dedicated sleep socks, my feet were warm and, for me warm feet mean the rest of my body is more likely to feel warm.

    Getting the tarp down lower? If it's windy, or raining, then yes. Other wise, no. Your body heat will likely result in condensation on the underside of the tarp.. If you get up in the middle of the night and brush against it, you're now wet for the rest of the night.. A little air circulation is a good thing. I never view my tarp as a tool for insulation. It's a wind/rain block.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  4. #14
    Senior Member
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    SilvrSurfr,

    I totally agree regarding respiration. The water vapor we exhale certainly can condense on our various pieces of gear, depending on the dew point. But respiration doesn't end up between your body and the pad! THAT moisture is perspiration.

    For perspiration to become condensate, first it has to become water vapor via evaporation. Then, that water vapor needs to come in contact with something that is at or below dew point temperature. That hardly describes the trapped liquid moisture we can experience with a sleeping pad. Furthermore, I would find it hard to believe that the temperature of the surface of a sleeping pad under a person is at or below dew point!

    Visualize the typical saturated cotton tee shirt after a vigorous physical workout. That moisture, i.e. sweat, is perspiration that is accumulating faster than it can evaporate. Same deal with lying on a sleeping pad.
    Last edited by TominMN; 03-02-2020 at 11:01.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
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    I'm with the idea having the least amount of clothing on and let the down do the work. T-shirt, boxers and maybe a fleece pullover work fine in keeping me warm with my 0 degree TQ/UQ combo. A fleece beanie or down hat goes a long way in keeping your head warm. If I get cold, it's easy enough to put extra layers on. I'll also have a down vest that I don't wear and use to tuck around me for comfort if a cold spot develops.

    I'm also a strong proponent of using an underquilt protector....Helps block wind/rain and keeps everything tidy and clean.

  6. #16
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    In the cold, an adequately rated TQ/UQ/UQP (or full sock) works for me. When it gets especially cold, I use balaclavas of various weights. I wear jammies and socks because it's easier to wash night clothes than it is to wash down. On some occasions, I might wear a light "sleeping jacket" - but I prefer less, not more, clothes and let my own body heat and the down insulation do their job.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 03-03-2020 at 13:36.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TominMN View Post
    SilvrSurfr,

    I totally agree regarding respiration. The water vapor we exhale certainly can condense on our various pieces of gear, depending on the dew point. But respiration doesn't end up between your body and the pad! THAT moisture is perspiration.

    For perspiration to become condensate, first it has to become water vapor via evaporation. Then, that water vapor needs to come in contact with something that is at or below dew point temperature. That hardly describes the trapped liquid moisture we can experience with a sleeping pad. Furthermore, I would find it hard to believe that the temperature of the surface of a sleeping pad under a person is at or below dew point!

    Visualize the typical saturated cotton tee shirt after a vigorous physical workout. That moisture, i.e. sweat, is perspiration that is accumulating faster than it can evaporate. Same deal with lying on a sleeping pad.
    I always thought that the process whereby water vapor turns to liquid (or ice) is condensation.

    There are 2 types of perspiration, sensible and insensible. Sensible is liquid and contains solutes (salts, etc); insensible is not liquid, but contains water vapor. MORE HERE.

    When the outer shell of a quilt or sleeping bag gets wet, this is not (usually) from sensible (wet) perspiration. It is insensible perspiration (water vapor) migrating from our bodies through the insulation, condensing on the shell, freezing if it is cold enough, and collecting as ice. If the surrounding air is warm enough and dry enough, this insensible perspiration is "absorbed" by (evaporates into) the ambient air.
    Last edited by cmoulder; 03-02-2020 at 13:58.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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  8. #18
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    Folks, Please don't derail the OP's thread by going into the condensation/perspiration discussion. While it is not bad information it has nothing to do with the OP's question. Please stay on topic.
    Deb
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    "The older I get, the more I appreciate my rural childhood. I spent a lot of time outdoors, unsupervised, which is a blessing." Barbara Kingsolver

  9. #19
    Member
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    One simple thing I've learned to do is I bring two binder paper clips and I pull up my under quilt when I'm already in it just a little on each side and then put that clip on to hold it in place. Just snugs up any lil gap. Made all the difference in the world for me and my hunting partner. Cheap and simple

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  10. #20
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Just reading thru this thread, or at least for the first time in a while, and I am baffled at how the pad was worthless? I am curious if laying on the pad all by itself- with no UQ even present- would also be worthless? Since I have used pads alone to sleep toasty warm below 20F. Or, when starting out with no insulation, added simple WM torso sized(cut down) blue pads once I got cold about 5AM and immediately warm back up, and since there are folks here who have used pads alone to well below zero, am I really the only one wondering "why did the pad not help at all?"?

    How is it the OP/Unicornv007 says "I thought the pad was worthless. I never could tell when I was on it."? Now mind you, I am not disputing his word, I'm sure that is what he experienced, but that absolutely is the opposite of what he should have experienced per laws of physics, indicating something else is wrong. Again, I think most of us would agree that if he was cold in a hammock with no UQ, and he added a functioning pad and laid directly on the pad, and of course assuming he can stay on the pad and does not get soaked with sweat or condensation(neither of which did he mention), he is going to be warmer than with no pad. Any one disagree with that? So what is up with "I never could tell when I was on it."? Indeed, was Unicornv007 on it?


    Bottom line, IMO: If the pad made no positive difference in warmth, then there is something being done wrong regarding the pad, or it is an inflatable pad that is malfunctioning some how.


    Unicornv007, you say you put the pad in the pad pocket. In my experience, that prevents the pad from moving around, in fact I can not move it if I want to without getting out of the hammock 1st. I guess this might vary by brand, and how loose or tight the 2nd layer/pad pocket is? Any of mine have been tight, with the exception of the HT90º, which is loose enough to place a 3" pad without raising the center of gravity(even a quilt can be added without compression). But most are tight. The only thing I can think of is a problem if the pad was narrow, or narrow and short like my torso sized TR, it might be possible that it was placed somewhere outside of where his back or butt was compressing, so that he indeed was not on it. In that case, the solution should be to make sure it is in the right spot so that he is actually laying on it, which should lead to an immediate and obvious increase in warmth. Depending on which TR pad it is, of course, it is quite possible that being on top of an insulated TR pad would provide enough warmth at 24F all by itself, without any help from the UQ. And, an UQ can not do anything to lessen the warmth from the pad. Unicornv007, do you know if you were actually on the pad or not?

    The next thing that comes to mind: if the pad, especially a long and/or wide pad, especially a stiff edged inflatable, placed on the diagonal, manages to poke out into the edges of the hammock and pushes on the UQ, it could cause a gap and negate any warmth from the UQ. Which, if the pad was not warm enough by itself for 24F, might result in a net effect of not being able to feel any improvement from the pad added to the UQ. Even, depending on the R value of the pad, a net loss compared to the UQ alone.

    But any of these would amount to user error which can be corrected if known about. If these errors are avoided, I can not conceive of any way that I can add a pad to an UQ which is not warm enough(or even to NO UQ at all), and not feel an immediate 20F to 40F boost in warmth. It might not be as comfy, and some might have condensation problems, but those are separate problems to be dealt with. Or, reasons to just avoid the pad if you prefer. But I can see no way that adding 2R to 6R value worth of non-compressible pad insulation, which only requires that I lay on top of it(no gaps or drafts possible, no correct suspension adjustment required), can fail to increase warmth, unless I am making an error in how I am using the pad with the UQ.

    Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-05-2020 at 12:57.

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