Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 44
  1. #11
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by GilligansWorld View Post
    Excellent break down. Very helpful and correct me if I am wrong but... - To perhaps summarize; you feel DCF (Cuben Fiber) is not well suited to windy(ier) situations where sustained winds with moderate to strong wind gust conditions exist. More or less due to DCF not stretching or perhaps stated another way, being unable to ease the sudden stress applied by sustained and gusting winds.

    Any way what would be your choice of tarps if you could have only one and you needed the best performance in all conditions?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    The failure more if truly analyzed would probably resemble the failure of other composite structures in a vibratory or LCF environment. In that the matrix degrades and separates from the fibers. When the fibers are no longer combined with the matrix they do not share the load and individual fibers can be overloaded and suffer tensile failure one by one as the structure unzips and fully fails.

    That is, in the flapping the strands become detached from the Mylar, or the Mylar fails and then the fibers break one by one until there is not enough left to hold and zip it comes apart.

  2. #12
    GilligansWorld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Hammock
    DIY 12' 1.6 oz Hyper D Baby
    Tarp
    DIY 12' RSBTR kit
    Insulation
    UGQ-uq OWLtq DIYsy
    Suspension
    SpiderStrap TI tog
    Posts
    1,009
    Images
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    The failure more if truly analyzed would probably resemble the failure of other composite structures in a vibratory or LCF environment. In that the matrix degrades and separates from the fibers. When the fibers are no longer combined with the matrix they do not share the load and individual fibers can be overloaded and suffer tensile failure one by one as the structure unzips and fully fails.

    That is, in the flapping the strands become detached from the Mylar, or the Mylar fails and then the fibers break one by one until there is not enough left to hold and zip it comes apart.
    Phenomenal analysis - I certainly am not enginerically (I do make up words though ) inclined nor knowledgable in the construction of DCF, however, I do feel this is on point.
    How do you view the lack of stretch in regards to the complete catastrophic failure? Does it even factor in at all?
    Lastly how do you feel heavier deniered DCF would have done? Wouldn't it suffer a complete failure for the same reasons or is the "sandwich" layer (mylar you said I believe) thicker and more robust too?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by GilligansWorld; 02-11-2020 at 10:04.
    Be The light in Someone's Darkness - Change the World one Act of Compassion, One Act of Kindness at a Time - We are All Living on Borrowed Time
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfJ...XMJUMaraHGfzhA

  3. #13
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jersey Shore, NJ
    Hammock
    Dutch PolyD
    Tarp
    HG Winter Palace
    Insulation
    HG 0, 20, 40
    Suspension
    Dutch Whoopie Hook
    Posts
    14,186
    Images
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by GilligansWorld View Post
    As cmc4free said I don't take much stock in FB but the thread here and there are nearly identical in what happened.
    It's a toss-up for me, on whether Facebook or Reddit is more useless for advice of any kind. How do so many people subscribe to so many threads about which they have absolutely no knowledge? And how do they comment so much on things they know nothing about?

    There's a lot of info missing from dirtbaghiker's post of his shredded DCF tarp. What kind of suspension (tarp and hammock) did he have? Was shock cord used on the tie-outs? How was the tarp staked out, and what kind of stakes? Was he inside the tarp when it shredded, or away from the incident? Was he on a bluff, or did he have landscape features to protect from savage winds (site selection)? So many variables.

    A couple of years ago we had a group hang after Thanksgiving in the Pine Barrens. Winds were supposed to be 20-30 mph, with gusts up to 40 mph, and 2-3 inches of rain expected.

    We didn't get that storm - we got 30 to 40 mph winds with gusts up to 60 mph, and five inches of rain coming sideways most of the night. Out of 40 campers, I'd say at least 15 had their tarp stakes rip out of the ground, soaking their underquilts and hammock. They slept in their cars or went home.

    Me? My HG DCF Winter Palace held up fine, as it has often done in 60 mph gusts. I did have to do some remedial tarp restaking a couple of times during the night, just when a particular stake seemed about to come loose. Nobody's tarp got shredded, to my knowledge - just tarp stakes pulled out.

    I'm personally rather skeptical about using shock cord on the tie-outs when using DCF tarps. It's such a perfect way to turn your tent stake into a projectile.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    York, UK
    Posts
    171
    If you made a DCF tarp up to the same weight as a silpoly tarp, the DCF one would be far stronger. It's just that nobody does this (because it would be overkill), they instead keep the strength roughly comparable while making the tarp lighter.

  5. #15
    aka 'Extra' MikekiM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    East of Montauk, NY
    Hammock
    DIY
    Tarp
    HG DCF-All of them
    Insulation
    HammockGear
    Suspension
    Kevlar + Beckett
    Posts
    3,881
    Images
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by hangnout View Post
    ....Bottom line DCF have a shorter life span than standard tarps. They will eventually fail. Good news is that they can be repaired with duct tape in the field.
    I don't mean any disrespect in saying this, but this ^^ part of your statement is irresponsible, unsupported and misleading to a newbie. I'm sure just as many 'standard' tarps have failed as have DCF. I suspect DCF failures are sensationalized more.. possibly because of the cost or in justification of NOT spending the money on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    It's a toss-up for me, on whether Facebook or Reddit is more useless for advice of any kind. How do so many people subscribe to so many threads about which they have absolutely no knowledge? And how do they comment so much on things they know nothing about?....
    I don't do Facebook.. can't comment on that one. I do frequent Reddit.. r/ultralite & r/backpacking (where you are likely to find copious DCF users) have some pretty knowledgeable people with much broader experience levels than we see here. Many are tarp campers. Likely more collective DCF experience in r/ultralite than we have here as well. r/hammockcamping is full of rookies.. not a lot of depth of experience there and tons of comments that are.. well... not right.

    That said, Dirtbaghikers failure is the first catastrophic failure I have heard of, and I have come across many more stories about DCF tarps surviving some exceptionally wicked storms. I'm keeping mine. Advantages outweigh perceived disadvantages and cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    If you made a DCF tarp up to the same weight as a silpoly tarp, the DCF one would be far stronger. It's just that nobody does this (because it would be overkill), they instead keep the strength roughly comparable while making the tarp lighter.
    This ^^^

    Aren't many racing sailboats using a heavier weight DCF for sail material? I've seen them fail (pretty cool to watch) but it's not often.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  6. #16
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by GilligansWorld View Post
    How do you view the lack of stretch in regards to the complete catastrophic failure? Does it even factor in at all?
    In the conditions the tarps see the lack of stretch does not play a factor. Without seeing the tarp, I can only surmise that it was a combination of fatigue and then tensile failure. How the tarp is tied out makes all the difference. The bigger factor may also be how well the tie out and reinforcement layers are built and applied. One of the challenges with cottage industry products is they can be made with design flaws due to lack of knowledge of materials or interactions. An example that dropped my butt on the ground last weekend, was a Titanium Hook made to hold the hammock up. The edges of the piece of hardware were not chamfered correctly and cut the Amsteel. The same 7/64" Amsteel holds me up all night long in my hardware free suspension.

  7. #17
    cmoulder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Ossining, NY
    Hammock
    DH Darien #6235, #7111
    Tarp
    HG hex, hex w/door
    Insulation
    Enigma, Incubator
    Suspension
    Kevlar, Lapp Hitch
    Posts
    2,291
    Images
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    In the conditions the tarps see the lack of stretch does not play a factor. Without seeing the tarp, I can only surmise that it was a combination of fatigue and then tensile failure. How the tarp is tied out makes all the difference. The bigger factor may also be how well the tie out and reinforcement layers are built and applied. One of the challenges with cottage industry products is they can be made with design flaws due to lack of knowledge of materials or interactions. An example that dropped my butt on the ground last weekend, was a Titanium Hook made to hold the hammock up. The edges of the piece of hardware were not chamfered correctly and cut the Amsteel. The same 7/64" Amsteel holds me up all night long in my hardware free suspension.
    I realize I'm a "One-Note Sally" on this, but the minimal (or complete lack) of chamfering or radiusing on a lot of hammock/tarp hardware often makes me cringe.

    But as far as longevity of DCF vs others, by far the most important factor is the user. On a trip to ME a couple of years ago, my friends and I talked to a couple of guys who were using .51 Duplex tents for their AT Thru, in fact their SECOND AT Thru with the same tents. They both said the tents were really pretty much used up, but they each had more than 400 nights with them with minimal repairs along the way.

    Conversely, we all know people who are "hard on gear" and could destroy a Duplex on one short trip. And there's also plain bad luck... I ran into a small branch the first time I ever used my GG Murmur and poked a good-sized hole in it!
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter

    “To equip a pedestrian with shelter, bedding, utensils, food, and other necessities, in a pack so light and small that he can carry it without overstrain, is really a fine art.” ~ Horace Kephart, 1906

  8. #18
    GilligansWorld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Hammock
    DIY 12' 1.6 oz Hyper D Baby
    Tarp
    DIY 12' RSBTR kit
    Insulation
    UGQ-uq OWLtq DIYsy
    Suspension
    SpiderStrap TI tog
    Posts
    1,009
    Images
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    If you made a DCF tarp up to the same weight as a silpoly tarp, the DCF one would be far stronger. It's just that nobody does this (because it would be overkill), they instead keep the strength roughly comparable while making the tarp lighter.
    I get that the dyneema being thicker would be stronger I think my question was more about the mylar sandwich they use. As I originally stated in this - I am not an engineer and do not understand the forces at work - however, I do believe folks are correct in guessing that the failure was at the sandwich level (In other words how it is attached to the mylar or perhaps even the mylar itself) and not at the dyneema fabric level. I I'm paraphrasing here but I agree with whoever said " when it's sandwiched to the mylar everything shares the load, but when it separates stresses can build up on individual fibers likely causing the catastrophic failure."
    MHO - and one that probably doesn't understand all of the forces involved

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Be The light in Someone's Darkness - Change the World one Act of Compassion, One Act of Kindness at a Time - We are All Living on Borrowed Time
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfJ...XMJUMaraHGfzhA

  9. #19
    cougarmeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bend, OR
    Hammock
    WBBB, WBRR, WL LiteOwl
    Tarp
    OES, WL BullFro
    Insulation
    HG UQ, TQ, WB UQ
    Suspension
    Python Straps
    Posts
    1,695
    Something to bear in mind when the, "DCF is used for boat sails so it should withstand the wind" thoughts enter is ... They are not holding the sailboat back against the wind. They are not anchored to the ground, a tree, etc. holding the wind back. On a sail boat, they are filling the shape of the sail and going with the wind. That's not to say too much sail won't have problems in a storm - it's that the dynamics are different.

    How does a sailboat move? Most people picture it being pushed by the wind in the sail. Sometimes, yes, when the wind is at the stern (back). But usually - the boat is "pulled". Imagine an airplane wing. The air over the top creates a pressure difference that causes lift - pulling the plane up. Now imagine that horizontal wing in a vertical position - that's a sail. The shape of the sail causes that same pressure difference but instead of pulling a horizontal wing up, it's pulling vertical wing forward. The DCF sail is moving with the wind.

    So I'm not saying DCF isn't strong. I'm just suggesting that thinking a DCF sail on a boat is the same dynamic as an anchored down tarp, could be a little off.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  10. #20
    aka 'Extra' MikekiM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    East of Montauk, NY
    Hammock
    DIY
    Tarp
    HG DCF-All of them
    Insulation
    HammockGear
    Suspension
    Kevlar + Beckett
    Posts
    3,881
    Images
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    So I'm not saying DCF isn't strong. I'm just suggesting that thinking a DCF sail on a boat is the same dynamic as an anchored down tarp, could be a little off.
    Yeah.. totally agree.. I thought about that after I hit Post. Not the same, but still a good testament to the forces being applied.

    Don't forget the keels contribution to forward motion of the boat.. without it, the boat would err to sliding sideways and have nearly no ability to point into the wind.

    Any way.. DCF is some pretty strong stuff until it isn't. IMHO the first failure is delamination. ONce that happens.. the game is pretty much over.

    FWIW... I remember my very first trip with a DCF tarp... I tripped over one of the guy lines. It was a heavy trip that sent me flying. There was a loud TWANG heard by my hiking partner and i fully expected the tarp corner to be trashed. The stake never pulled out, the guy line didn't snap, the split ring didn't split and the 1" loop of shock cord I had (now gone) was still intact. The tarp was fine.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  • + New Posts
  • Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 2
      Last Post: 06-19-2019, 11:46
    2. 10x12 poly tarps
      By Fireant in forum Weather Protection
      Replies: 10
      Last Post: 02-22-2019, 10:50
    3. Poly tarps and Gorilla Tape
      By XSrcing in forum Weather Protection
      Replies: 10
      Last Post: 09-30-2012, 11:29
    4. Grommet in Webbing - Still structurally sound?
      By jmsdgrf in forum Suspension Systems, Ridgelines, & Bug Nets
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 12-14-2011, 16:40
    5. poly tarps?
      By CrackMunk in forum Weather Protection
      Replies: 16
      Last Post: 10-13-2010, 08:24

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •