Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    southeast WV
    Hammock
    DIY
    Posts
    4,816
    Images
    208

    Klemheist loop - possible shorter hangs with bridge hammocks?

    In hanging my bridge hammocks I have sometimes found that the trees are too close together because the 7/64" whoopies slings I use require an extra 18 inches at each end.
    01 whoopie sling - 17 inch.JPG

    I can double the whoopies around the strap toggles to halve their length, but that makes adjustment under load difficult. (Does not pass "the mitten test" for winter camping.)
    02 whoopie sling - 17 inch doubled.JPG

    Lately, I've used loopy slings to make the suspensions shorter. Incidentally, the lines shown in the rest of these pictures are 1.8 mm dyneema, advertised as 900 lb. test, which makes it similar to Dynaglide. You could use Amsteel for these suspensions also. Adjustment frequently involves rotating the loop around its attachment points (strap toggle at the tree end and hammock suspension triangles at the other end) - very difficult under tension, so it definitely does not pass the mitten test.
    03 loopy sling.JPG

    These are fiddly - I need to adjust the suspension bury, then adjust the location of the 1/16" bungee attachment with the Klemheist knot to maintain tension on the left end of the suspension bury. I can get the length of the loop down to 7 inches - just a bit shorter than the doubled whoopie sling above. (Another inch or two shorter is possible. I am conservative on my bury lengths with this lighter line.) Forget the mitten test - Frostbite warning! But remember, I have managed to move my trees 22 inches closer together.
    04 loopy sling - min 7 inches.JPG Sorry for the shadow in this picture. You're looking at a single strand loop that passes through itself.

    What if I could do better? I'll try a plain klemheist knot instead of the loopy sling bury. Here's my first attempt. It's effectively an adjustable continuous loop. Klemheist knots, like prussics, work best wrapped around heavier line, so I just wrapped it around a doubled line - no shadows here. (Ignore the diamond knot as a stopper on the right. A plain overhand knot would do, and it shouldn't be needed, anyway.)
    05 small Klemheist sling aka adjustable continuous loop.jpg

    So far, so good. How's it work for a hammock suspension? Here's an 8 foot piece of the same dyneema line, doubled, with the middle loop used for the klemheist knot. It yields a "klemheist loop" up to 20 inches long. Early testing (this morning) suggests that it passes the mitten test
    06 Klemheist sling - 20 inch.JPG Edit: I mistakenly said I used a 4 foot piece of line for this loop. Incidentally, starting with a 12 foot piece of line yields a klemheist loop that expands to about 32". These doubled loops turn out to be only slightly lighter than an amsteel whoopie of similar finished length, which can be made from a shorter piece of line.

    ... and, it adjusts down to 2 inches (theoretically - I'd want a bigger loop to get it over the strap toggle marlinspike hitch).
    07 Klemheist sling - 2 inch.JPG That's the klemheist loop on the left.

    Here's where I say, "Don't try this at home, kids! Wait for me to do exhaustive testing (tonight)." So far this suspension has withstood a 150 lb. hanger getting into and out of the hammock twice. So, purely as an intellectual exercise, try to wrap your mind around tying a klemheist knot around itself.

    Hint: 08 Klemheist sling - tying.jpg
    Last edited by WV; 01-14-2020 at 09:49. Reason: error in description

  2. #2
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Ossining, NY
    Hammock
    DH Darien, SLD Tree Runner
    Tarp
    HG hex
    Insulation
    Timmermade, Revolt
    Suspension
    Kevlar, Lapp Hitch
    Posts
    4,912
    Images
    356
    I've played with Klemheist and Hedden (using amsteel... IIRC they were 4-5 wraps) attached to Venom and Myers (both UMHWPE) webbing and they locked down very tight under load. Fewer wraps, say 3, and they would slip very easily.

    I suspect they'll be very tough to release using this smaller material. It'll be interesting to see how many wraps are needed and how easy or difficult to release in your testing.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  3. #3
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Ossining, NY
    Hammock
    DH Darien, SLD Tree Runner
    Tarp
    HG hex
    Insulation
    Timmermade, Revolt
    Suspension
    Kevlar, Lapp Hitch
    Posts
    4,912
    Images
    356
    PS I like your trick for tying it into a loop. Similarly, I once "transferred" a prusik by using a chopstick to hold its shape while threading thru a replacement cord.

    One good thing about yours being a loop, it takes only half the load compared to a single cord.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  4. #4
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    southeast WV
    Hammock
    DIY
    Posts
    4,816
    Images
    208
    Thanks. Five or six wraps are what I tried, and so far I can twist to tighten and untwist to loosen as with smaller cords. The dyneema (from Emmakites.com) might be slippery, especially wrapped around itself - even though doubled, so I'll be watching for slippage over time. I may have to invite an 80 lb. dog into the hammock to give it a serious test. Grizz has spoken of New England Ropes Spiderline as good for knots because of its braided polyester sheath, so I may get some to give it a try. Thanks for mentioning the Hedden knot. I wasn't familiar with it.

    I debated which direction to pass the doubled ends through the tube when tying it. The first try looked wrong, so I changed direction to make it act the way I thought a Klemheist should work. I may go back and try tightening it down when going the other direction just to see what happens.

    Since the line is doubled to make the knot, forming a loop should give four times the strength. Balance that against reports that the Klemheist isn't as strong as other prussic variations.
    Last edited by WV; 01-12-2020 at 13:23.

  5. #5
    I like your trick for trick for tying. I have only ever used a Klemheist in combination with a French Prussik for prussiking up a rope. Not sure how it will be on Amsteel. Personally I just have soft shackles that can go over the Marlinspike and adjust this, missing out the Whoopie completely.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    southeast WV
    Hammock
    DIY
    Posts
    4,816
    Images
    208
    Only so-so results last night. My hammock didn't slip, but the klemheist knots twisted and wrapped around themselves. The tag end pulled the loop up. It took me 45 minutes (sitting in the kitchen, in front of a blazing wood stove) to dismantle the knot. It's hard to imagine a more conspicuous failure of the mitten test. (No, I was not wearing mittens.)

    FWIW, I saw an improvement was possible that makes it easier to tie the knot and then do triage on the failures. Ybother's note about soft shackles reminded me that I have used them to replace carabiners, and the doubled line of the klemheist loop invites putting one "in the loop", as it were.
    klemheist loop with soft shackle.JPG
    That's the soft shackle connection near the klemheist knot. Now the lines that pass through the knot can be separated from it, so there's no need of the tube I used as a tying jig. It also makes untangling the failure a mere 5 minute job (+ another 5 minutes to tie a new klemheist for the next time I want to hang the hammock. For the second try, I only used four wraps, but they bound up just as tightly. I could experiment further, but as a great thinker opined, "Ybother?"

  7. #7
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Ossining, NY
    Hammock
    DH Darien, SLD Tree Runner
    Tarp
    HG hex
    Insulation
    Timmermade, Revolt
    Suspension
    Kevlar, Lapp Hitch
    Posts
    4,912
    Images
    356
    I wish it had worked but not surprised it didn't.

    Have you made some whoopies with the bury located very close to the fixed eye? I made some mini-whoopies this way, using a 5" finished bury and small fixed eye, so the minimum length was something like 10". I know 8" bury is "by the book" but I found that 5" never slipped.

    In ye olde dayes we used klemheist or bachman with 6mm utility cord and 11mm climbing rope and it worked well, but still preferred prusik. I never fell into a crevasse but climbed out of one once during a glacier travel course... that's an experience that will make you really appreciate ascenders.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  8. #8
    cougarmeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bend, OR
    Hammock
    WBBB, WBRR, WL LiteOwl
    Tarp
    OES, WL BullFro
    Insulation
    HG UQ, TQ, WB UQ
    Suspension
    Python Straps
    Posts
    3,759
    Maybe the tail is wagging the dog or some such imbalance. What I mean is, you've identified the problem of using whoopies - their inherent demand for a wider tree distance - and paired them with a hammock - the Ridge Runner - that is known to be one of the longest suspension demanding (13 ft from Apex to Apex) Bridge Hammocks. You don't want to mess with shorting the RR suspension length as that puts more stress on the spreader bars and too much stress will break them. So why not just use a different suspension for your bridge. One that, "out of the box" doesn't required the distance overhead of the Whoopie.

    If you use something like webbing or even daisy chain, you can probably save two feet between trees and no fiddling around. Just sayin'
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  9. #9
    cmc4free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,160
    Images
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Maybe the tail is wagging the dog or some such imbalance. What I mean is, you've identified the problem of using whoopies - their inherent demand for a wider tree distance - and paired them with a hammock - the Ridge Runner - that is known to be one of the longest suspension demanding (13 ft from Apex to Apex) Bridge Hammocks. You don't want to mess with shorting the RR suspension length as that puts more stress on the spreader bars and too much stress will break them. So why not just use a different suspension for your bridge. One that, "out of the box" doesn't required the distance overhead of the Whoopie.

    If you use something like webbing or even daisy chain, you can probably save two feet between trees and no fiddling around. Just sayin'
    Taking nothing away from WV's experimentation, I have to agree with what cougarmeat is saying.

    Without shortening the length of the dogbones in the bridge suspension triangles, it's hard to imagine any suspension system that allows for a shorter tree span than the one pictured below. Removing whatever apex hardware from the bridge's dogbones and then connecting the eye loops of the dogbones to a Dutch Beetle Buckle on a suitable strap allows the bridge triangles to be connected a mere 2 inches or less from each tree. I don't believe there would be any weight penalty in choosing spider/poly straps and beetle buckles vs. strap/toggle/whoopie (or whoopie alternative, per the topic of this thread). Hanging and adjusting the strap and Beetle Buckle setup is about as simple as can be. Should be no problem with the mitten test for most users.

    Of course, this requires the purchase of Beetle Buckles or something similar, and I completely understand that some people prefer a hardware-free aesthetic. Those are totally valid reasons to avoid this sort of approach, but if the theme of this topic is possible shorter hangs with bridge hammocks, I believe it's appropriate to include this method here.


  10. #10
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    southeast WV
    Hammock
    DIY
    Posts
    4,816
    Images
    208
    It's good to get some more opinions. Thanks. I confess I haven't given strap systems their due, in part because I didn't want to buy more hardware. Early attempts to use straps with cinch buckles and also some things that may have been early versions of Adutchable Clips weren't very promising (they slipped). I probably need to try some different straps, too. (I like the Spider/poly straps I have, but I cut them in half to use as tree straps with whoopies.)

    I've attacked the problem of tree distance from both ends, though. In addition to trying different suspension techniques, I've tried different hammocks. Cougarmeat, I make all my own hammocks, so I haven't had to deal with anything as long as a Ridgerunner. Hammocks I make for tall people are longer than most of the ones I use myself (I'm 5' 7"), but so far the longest ridgeline has been 11 ft. That was for somebody who's 6' 1". The hammock I'm working on to take to Mt. Rogers has a ridgeline of 112". It has recessed spreader bars, like Grizz's Ariel, and my PBH design allows recessing the foot end spreader considerably more than usual.

    I just looked at a video of the Beetle Buckles, and they do look nice. Maybe ....

  • + New Posts
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Amsteel loop for bridge spreader bars?
      By pdxhanger in forum Do-It-Yourself (DIY)
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 05-31-2017, 21:59
    2. Do any shorter folks have trouble hanging their hammocks?
      By payo809 in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 8
      Last Post: 09-02-2014, 14:17
    3. Shorter Body Length equal Shorter Hammock?
      By aclawrence in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 12
      Last Post: 11-12-2012, 15:42
    4. shorter bury on whoopie sling fixed loop?
      By bowl-maker in forum Suspension Systems, Ridgelines, & Bug Nets
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 09-24-2012, 04:16
    5. Klemheist UQ suspension
      By taylo in forum Suspension Systems, Ridgelines, & Bug Nets
      Replies: 13
      Last Post: 06-28-2011, 12:30

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •