Multi-configuration underquilt

[JShep]

$500-$600 worth of down? Holy Moley! How much down are you in the market for?

Not sure if you know about us but we created our business to aid MYOG / DIY Enthusiasts with the high cost of down. We can get you out the door for less than what you are currently getting quoted at now .. We would love to help if you see fit.

I had only found two sources for hydrophobic down (neither of which were yours), which had prices ranging from $160-200/lb and i'll need roughly 3 pounds total. I definitely like your prices way better though!

[GilligansWorld]

I had only found two sources for hydrophobic down (neither of which were yours), which had prices ranging from $160-200/lb and i'll need roughly 3 pounds total. I definitely like your prices way better though!

I was going to ask you why you were sold on the hydrophobic down? It's been my opinion - at least I think - you're going to want non-treated down. I have a quote from a manufacturer that no longer does products ,- Outdoor Wilderness Logics - who doesn't use it and this product for me seems to work better

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[JShep]

I was going to ask you why you were sold on the hydrophobic down? It's been my opinion - at least I think - you're going to want non-treated down. I have a quote from a manufacturer that no longer does products ,- Outdoor Wilderness Logics - who doesn't use it and this product for me seems to work better

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work better in what way?

The main reason is that while out on the trail you never know what kind of weather you may run into rain, fog, snow, or even morning dew or body sweat etc. with down the last thing you want is to get it wet and loose insulating power. I don't want to loose breath ability in the shell fabric so that leaves out the waterproof ones. The argon fabrics from Dutch are said to shed water fairly well so i'm leaning towards them for the outer shell. Either way the hydrophobic treatment just adds another layer of protection against any kind of moisture.

[GilligansWorld]

work better in what way?

The main reason is that while out on the trail you never know what kind of weather you may run into rain, fog, snow, or even morning dew or body sweat etc. with down the last thing you want is to get it wet and loose insulating power. I don't want to loose breath ability in the shell fabric so that leaves out the waterproof ones. The argon fabrics from Dutch are said to shed water fairly well so i'm leaning towards them for the outer shell. Either way the hydrophobic treatment just adds another layer of protection against any kind of moisture.

That certainly has been a conventional wisdom. I myself am not sold Outdoor Wilderness Logics never use treated down and in my experience when I've used product in a very high humidity environment I did not notice much difference between the treated and untreated down. In my example the non-treated down is my top quilt and my treated down is my underquilt. When we were in California my top quilt did not seem to have much problem forcing moisture out with my body heat. My underquilt was a different story at 60° with nearly 100% humidity I was struggling to stay warm on my bottom.

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[WV]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. Let me add that I think you're on the right track getting a cheap sleeping bag and making an underquilt first. Some experience using an UQ will help you a lot. People have noted the difference in size between underquilts and top quilts. There's also a difference in shape that makes a huge difference in the function of an underquilt, but less in a top quilt, which will drape over the sleeper (if it's big enough). Clews will help, but a curved shape for an underquilt as a starting point is going to help you get your money's worth out of that down by reducing thin spots underneath and air gaps at the edges. Get the thinnest and cheapest sleeping bag you can find and sew some darts in the edges. Then hope for some cold weather to test in.

Don't be daunted by down. I use the vacuum cleaner with no seeum mesh over the wand to trap down to transfer method. You'll need to use your fingers to push down into the wand as it fills up because the vacuum is only strong enough to suck it in at the start. Use a scale that measures tenths of an ounce. Good luck. You sound like you'll do fine. Get all your questions answered before you leave for that backpacking trip.

[JShep]

That certainly has been a conventional wisdom. I myself am not sold Outdoor Wilderness Logics never use treated down and in my experience when I've used product in a very high humidity environment I did not notice much difference between the treated and untreated down. In my example the non-treated down is my top quilt and my treated down is my underquilt. When we were in California my top quilt did not seem to have much problem forcing moisture out with my body heat. My underquilt was a different story at 60° with nearly 100% humidity I was struggling to stay warm on my bottom.

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This may not have been an issue with the down itself though, but more with the setup. There's nothing here that proves the treated vs untreated down is any better just a use case scenario that honestly has way too many factors to pinpoint the treated down as the culprit (setup of underquilt, baffle design differences, outer shell differences etc.). Its likely you may have had more airflow between your hammock and UQ vs your topquilt being right up against you and easily manipulated to close up any drafts and at 60 degrees its not incredibly cold to be pushing the limits of down insulation.

The argument for or against hydrophobic down really all boils down to a preference and use. Many manufacturers use a waterproof outer shell and call it good, the sacrifice there for me is breath ability, although I may still do a small waterproof foot box. For me the likelihood of encountering moisture while isolated on a trip is highly likely, since I do quite a bit of adventuring in rough weather, or even while pack rafting there's an increased risk of a leak in a waterproof stuff sack etc. to me its a small price to pay for a bit of added security.

[JShep]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. Let me add that I think you're on the right track getting a cheap sleeping bag and making an underquilt first. Some experience using an UQ will help you a lot. People have noted the difference in size between underquilts and top quilts. There's also a difference in shape that makes a huge difference in the function of an underquilt, but less in a top quilt, which will drape over the sleeper (if it's big enough). Clews will help, but a curved shape for an underquilt as a starting point is going to help you get your money's worth out of that down by reducing thin spots underneath and air gaps at the edges. Get the thinnest and cheapest sleeping bag you can find and sew some darts in the edges. Then hope for some cold weather to test in.

Don't be daunted by down. I use the vacuum cleaner with no seeum mesh over the wand to trap down to transfer method. You'll need to use your fingers to push down into the wand as it fills up because the vacuum is only strong enough to suck it in at the start. Use a scale that measures tenths of an ounce. Good luck. You sound like you'll do fine. Get all your questions answered before you leave for that backpacking trip.

thanks for the tips, I've decided to do a mock up with an old bag I have here and some scraps from other projects. The darts you speak of seem to be pretty common so i'll have to test these out on the old bag and see how well they convert.

One question i still don't really have answered is on the materials side, i'm not sure how these materials rank as far as breath-ability and softness. I want something highly breathable and very soft for the interior and something still breathable but slightly heavier for the outer fabric. Can anyone rank these for me? I have samples of a few but I need to order the ones i'm missing for a true comparison. Again im comparing Argon 67/90 or Ion from dutchwaregear or HyperD or one of the Membrane products from RipstopByTheRoll.

[GilligansWorld]

thanks for the tips, I've decided to do a mock up with an old bag I have here and some scraps from other projects. The darts you speak of seem to be pretty common so i'll have to test these out on the old bag and see how well they convert.

One question i still don't really have answered is on the materials side, i'm not sure how these materials rank as far as breath-ability and softness. I want something highly breathable and very soft for the interior and something still breathable but slightly heavier for the outer fabric. Can anyone rank these for me? I have samples of a few but I need to order the ones i'm missing for a true comparison. Again im comparing Argon 67/90 or Ion from dutchwaregear or HyperD or one of the Membrane products from RipstopByTheRoll.

Well if it helps I just converted a bag to an UQ. Here are the videos I had made recording my methods and results. First video is how I did it and second is my results. If you don't want to watch it all and just see before and after check out description on first video - it had skip to spots and the beginning of 2nd video jumps right into results.
Cheers
https://youtu.be/oT2viATIkkU
https://youtu.be/sv1Rskfn_jo

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[LooseGooseDownSupply]

I was going to ask you why you were sold on the hydrophobic down? It's been my opinion - at least I think - you're going to want non-treated down. I have a quote from a manufacturer that no longer does products ,- Outdoor Wilderness Logics - who doesn't use it and this product for me seems to work better

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This is quite the controversial topic. Check out the link below for Katbatic and Western Mountaineering's responses based on this subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/...ut_treated_vs/

TLDR: There are plenty of pros and cons in either direction which is why we intend to supply both treated and untreated down options in the near future.

[GilligansWorld]

This is quite the controversial topic. Check out the link below for Katbatic and Western Mountaineering's responses based on this subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/...ut_treated_vs/

TLDR: There are plenty of pros and cons in either direction which is why we intend to supply both treated and untreated down options in the near future.

Thank you very much for the link but I've already read this article and I am aware of the controversy surrounding this. I'm not here to sway or help anybody on this topic I've already made my opinion, which although you didn't ask for I think I should clarify;
I believe non-treated down is the way to go. Although treating the down does help with certain issues, people that own these own them tend to own these for a lifetime or certainly for years. Washing them will be an inevitability in a scenario such as this. Certainly you're going to have to maintain the product if you want to continue to have the product perform the way it's supposed to.
One thing that wasn't mentioned in the article that you posted was what happens to the hydrophobic coating once a washing occurs,.........
My thoughts on it are why pay for it if it's going to wash off. Why pay for it if there aren't clear cut benefits to adding it.
MHO Not here to sway anybody just stating my beliefs.

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