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  1. #1
    Senior Member newlease's Avatar
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    Smile Help an old dog out? or Which is warmer?

    Hello all!

    It has been a long time since I've posted on HF, but I can't think of any group that I would rather ask my question to even though it's about sleeping more or less on the ground. And I'm not even talking about humans! My mother has a neighbor whose dog is getting older, has a bad back and his hind legs give out on him unexpectedly every now and then. He's the coolest dog, but his owners are busy. He's very anxious and when left alone in the house tears it apart. He was a mostly outside dog his whole life in the daytime and so they don't see another solution than to keep him outside during the day. My mother feels bad for him in extreme heat and extreme cold, now not even so extreme cold, and she has a standing offer to take him to her house when he would be suffering if left outside. My mother and her neighbors have a good relationship and they repay her for her kindness in a number of ways. So it's all good. BUT now that he has the aches and pains of an older man dog my mother thinks it's not fair that the warmest spot on his porch is a bench that's been covered with W-M blue closed-cell foam (yes, that was my idea) and he has to jump up to get on it. SO she wants to offer a pallet of sorts to them to set on their porch that he can just walk onto a cozy warm spot. She asked me to help and, of course, I readily agreed. I have the wood left over from another project anyway. We're thinking just a sheet of plywood with 2 layers of W-M Blue and then wood on 3 sides to create a bit of a barrier from the wind.

    So here is my question: Which is warmer? having the whole pallet lifted a couple of inches from the ground so it's not directly touching the cold concrete or having it set directly on the porch? Both hypotheticals would have 2 layers of Blue and if raised off the ground the air underneath would not circulate -- it would have wood all the way around the bottom so theoretically it would be cold, but dead, air underneath. Or would it be mostly the same - either you're fighting the cold of the concrete or the cold of the air being kept cold by the concrete?

    I know this is a long read. Thanks to anyone who replies.

  2. #2
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    “it would have wood all the way around the bottom so theoretically it would be cold, but dead, air underneath.”

    I think this! Dead air = insulation. Even better fill underneath with insulation. Thanks for your kindness to the old guy.
    The deep mystery gives rise to the spirits -Charc

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  3. #3
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytow View Post
    “it would have wood all the way around the bottom so theoretically it would be cold, but dead, air underneath.”

    I think this! Dead air = insulation. Even better fill underneath with insulation. Thanks for your kindness to the old guy.
    Yeah, I think this is getting on the right track. The effect may not be massive, but theoretically, the air will not be dead still. There will be natural convection currents caused by the temperature differential of the dog side of the air space compared to the concrete side of the air space. Again, the effect may not be massive because the bottom of the 2 layers of CCF will be close to the same temp as the concrete. But to err on the safe side, if you can stuff that dead air space with material (even free material like fallen leaves or dead grass), that will reduce the amount of heat being removed from the pad due to natural convection. The grass or leaves or whatever would replicate one of the functions of down in a quilt or sleeping bag. Besides lofting the quilt, the down greatly reduces the ability for air to circulate within the quilt, thus limiting convective heat loss. You can replicate that by filling the area under your pallet with some type of loose material. It won't hurt anyway...

  4. #4
    canoebie's Avatar
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    Good on you for that kind of compassion!! I do the same for some outdoor cats we have. They have a bed in my garage off the concrete and I use an old wool army blanket. Can be washed. The CCF foam will definitely help. Concrete sucks up any heat, so being off of it would be important I would think. I also use Warm Window for my dog as a blanket. It has mylar and other insulative materials, used to make panels to go over windows to insulate. Not sure if it is still available. Got it at Joanne Fabrics. Good luck, our winter has started out real cold and snowy, backing off to a little more normal now. Spent the 7-11th of November in northern Michigan in single digits and 14 inches of snow. Was going to canoe, but just sat in a state forest campground instead. My old bones enjoyed the warmth of down.
    “Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
    ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  5. #5
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    I would go with extruded styrofoam (R 5 per inch) for this vs the R1.4 of a 1/2 inch blue foam pad.

  6. #6
    Member ravenblack's Avatar
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    If you can find an off cut of Kingspan/Celotex (brands in the UK) basically dry wall insulation with foil facings, and use that to fill the void under the frame. You could use silicone/no more nails to fix it to the ply sheet. Protection from wind chill is going to be equally as important for an old dog imho. He will have a hard time maintaining his core temperature if he is exposed to the wind.

  7. #7
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyM View Post
    I would go with extruded styrofoam (R 5 per inch) for this vs the R1.4 of a 1/2 inch blue foam pad.
    Wow, that styro sounds good, but I did not know the WM blue pad had so little R value. I think I remember folks sleeping warm in hammocks with that pad below 40F. 1.4 is not much. OTOH, I have seen ratings for some other CCF ratings that was 2.2R for 1/2".

  8. #8
    Senior Member WalksIn2Trees's Avatar
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    yeah, I mean anything is better than nothing, poor old guy, but how much money do you want to throw at warning up? and is there an outlet in their porch?

    Sent from my SM-T827V using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Wow, that styro sounds good, but I did not know the WM blue pad had so little R value. I think I remember folks sleeping warm in hammocks with that pad below 40F. 1.4 is not much. OTOH, I have seen ratings for some other CCF ratings that was 2.2R for 1/2".
    I got the R value from this Section Hikers article- https://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/

  10. #10
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyM View Post
    I got the R value from this Section Hikers article- https://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/

    Thanks, good chart, I think I will save that to go with another one I have for hammocks from Youngblood. I see the .375" Stansport Blue pad at 1.4, but I don't see the Walmart Blue 1/2" pad. Lots of useful info though!

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