Quest for Ultra Lite Hammock System

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Getting closer to where I think I need to be. For less than $400, I can drop 2.34 lbs off where I was when I started this. I will hold off on a Dyneema Tarp until I can find one on sale. I set up my system yesterday to take a look at some things and took my tarp to storm mode. Saw the spreader bars were hitting. They may have been hitting for some time, but never noticed it due to the rounded edges of the JRB spreader bars. Just curious, how resistant to scuffs is Dyneema?

Here is my updated sheet.

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BumpingTarp.jpg

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PS: JB - I did order a complete set of Dutch tree huggers, 24" dog bones whoopie sling and hooks. The existing web for the triangle was at 23" from corner ring to apex, so the dog bone is close to the same size. I have already cut the old webbing off and waiting for the Amsteel to arrive. This is reflected in my new weights above.

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Published Weights on Website?

I went back to look what Marmot had listed for the weight of my Never Winter 30. They published 30 ounces. I measured 38 ounces without the compression sack (another thing I will loose from my pack).

I hope that Hammock Gear is accurate with the ratings on their site. The Burrow Economy 20F shows to be 26.05 ounces.

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Just saw something that I did not know. I went back and looked at my present sleeping pad and saw that I have the All Season mat - long. When I looked up the specifications, I saw that it has an R Value of 4.9. No wonder I have been sleeping warm in my hammock as the pad is the bottom insulation and pretty good warmth value. The published weight is 25 ounces and my scale is measuring 27.7. I wonder if the scale is off?

Needless to say, the published Xtherm is indicating 20.00 ounces with an R Value of 5.7. Does not seem to make sense to spend $179 for a pad that is only 5 ounces lighter and an increased R value of .8.

NeoAir_AllSeason_Specs.jpg

[BillyBob58]

Just saw something that I did not know. I went back and looked at my present sleeping pad and saw that I have the All Season mat - long. When I looked up the specifications, I saw that it has an R Value of 4.9. No wonder I have been sleeping warm in my hammock as the pad is the bottom insulation and pretty good warmth value. The published weight is 25 ounces and my scale is measuring 27.7. I wonder if the scale is off?

Needless to say, the published Xtherm is indicating 20.00 ounces with an R Value of 5.7. Does not seem to make sense to spend $179 for a pad that is only 5 ounces lighter and an increased R value of .8.

I have the same pad as you.If I was buying new, I would probably get the X-therm. But if I need more warmth, I can always just add my 1/2" thick CCF sit or torso pad, or maybe even my pack under my legs. That would add a bunch of R value, at least in the areas it covers. But, an X-therm would be nice. There is a fellow here that has been warm with that one in an REI bridge at minus 11F, plus some wind chill(no tarp). That is single layer, with him sleeping directly on the pad inside the hammock. Of course, he might just be a super warm sleeper.

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I have the same pad as you.If I was buying new, I would probably get the X-therm. But if I need more warmth, I can always just add my 1/2" thick CCF sit or torso pad, or maybe even my pack under my legs. That would add a bunch of R value, at least in the areas it covers. But, an X-therm would be nice. There is a fellow here that has been warm with that one in an REI bridge at minus 11F, plus some wind chill(no tarp). That is single layer, with him sleeping directly on the pad inside the hammock. Of course, he might just be a super warm sleeper.

I just edited my post and inserted a picture of the specifications. I guess, Thermarest does not make this pad any longer and maybe it was a precursor to the Xtherm. I could get away with a shorter pad, but they only made the 25" pad in that length at the time.

Went back to Moosejaw and saw that the version they are selling is the 2019 version. The max (which is what I want due to the rectangular shape) comes in at 22 ounces and has an R Value of 5.7. The 2020 version, which is on their website, has an R Value of 6.9 and an increase of weight to 23 ounces. It is also more expensive at $235. That 6.9 R Value is insane. If I am comfortable to 20F on a pad that is rated at 4.9 - what would 6.9 be like?

Don't think the investment is worth it. Not getting the bang for the buck of only 2-3 ounces over what I currently have. And I am somewhat okay with this portion as I have never gotten a cold butt or legs. So maybe a top quilt and a tarp is where I can really shave some ounces for the dollars invested. This quest is driving me nuts. All you UL guys feel like this sometimes?

[cmoulder]

I just edited my post and inserted a picture of the specifications. I guess, Thermarest does not make this pad any longer and maybe it was a precursor to the Xtherm. I could get away with a shorter pad, but they only made the 25" pad in that length at the time.

Went back to Moosejaw and saw that the version they are selling is the 2019 version. The max (which is what I want due to the rectangular shape) comes in at 22 ounces and has an R Value of 5.7. The 2020 version, which is on their website, has an R Value of 6.9 and an increase of weight to 23 ounces. It is also more expensive at $235. That 6.9 R Value is insane. If I am comfortable to 20F on a pad that is rated at 4.9 - what would 6.9 be like?

Don't think the investment is worth it. Not getting the bang for the buck of only 2-3 ounces over what I currently have. And I am somewhat okay with this portion as I have never gotten a cold butt or legs. So maybe a top quilt and a tarp is where I can really shave some ounces for the dollars invested. This quest is driving me nuts. All you UL guys feel like this sometimes?

You can also shorten an Xtherm max by cutting off excess and re-sealing it with a hot iron. I have one that was nominally 78" long, but even after inflating it—which actually shortens it compared to the uninflated length—it was still 81" long. I'm 5'9" so 72" inflated length is plenty for me, so I cut it off and reduced the weight by over 4oz and the bulk as well. But the first time you slice into a brand new $200 air mat it does make you pucker up a bit. However, I had done this previously with a couple of other Neoairs and had no problems.

[Just Bill]

Jumping back in-
24" dogbones seems very short... but it is 80% of 30" and you have the ring plus a little webbing too so it technically checks out for about a 200lb user. As you noted in another thread- the notched pole/ring/webbing interacts fairly uniquely so might as well copy what they did as things have held up fine for you thus far. It is a very deep bridge so the 'tippy' factor is likely balanced by the depth as well.

Marmot was once a premium brand but they long ago sold the name and watered down the gear- so the specs vary year to year and run to run. Point being- who knows what model you got exactly or what the quality control ratio is these days on weight variation from spec. This sorta gear is more like tennis shoes- updated yearly with no rhyme or reason at times. As you note with the Thermarest pads... gets a bit tricky at times with commercial stuff.

Generally speaking- most cottage vendors don't have that issue. And if they do- they will fix it. So regarding the trusted cottage vendors mentioned- don't stress over that issue. +/- a little is reasonable since it is a hand made product, but you won't see such wild differences in specs. Most cottage guys list a +/- variation they consider 'in spec' too.

Back to the Pad- sorry if I confused things thinking you had the other version of the pad. Again- large company and model year changes (without name changes) can mess things up.
I would strongly suggest you wait until the 2020 models regardless. The valve is updated to work with a pump sack (handy). Looks like the current weights include the Pad, pumpsack, stuff sack and repair kit on their website. REI typically will give you a stripped down weight (pad only) so that is probably why the number is 2-4 ounces different. REI was generally pretty good about giving 'real' weights and not just republishing the manufacturers weight... but as they have grown this can be more error prone. Usually you can find confirmation in reviews, but one reason (besides coupons and discounts) I still like REI is that you can easily return something with no issues. You buy XYZ brand gear from ABC outfitters online and you may have trouble returning a that item if it is wildly off spec.

From what I understand- Thermarest is leading a push to standardize R-value tests. That is the primary reason that the values are changing so much, though I'm not sure who else is joining them.
Like many cottage vendors here- thermarest tended to be a bit conservative. Many of the others though tend to be optimistic, sometimes laughably so. I still think Thermarest is the gold standard overall.

Bottom line on the pad- save it for later as you've got bigger fish to fry or lower hanging fruit to pick.
As mentioned before- with the updated values you may be able to skip over to the yellow colored Neo-Air pads if you can ditch the rectangle. That is the bigger win. If you skip back to my earlier post you'll see I mentioned you really aren't getting anywhere serious with the rectangular Xtherm except for R-value. Since it seems that R-value comparison was an error... then that premise is dead.

It is definitely easy to get squirrelly and face decision paralysis in todays market. Even a decade ago your choices were very limited and fairly clear. The good news is lighter gear is easy to come by AND all gear is lighter as what was once high end experimental stuff has filtered into standard gear. The bad news is that the options are plentiful.

Rather than go blind skimming sleeping pad specs or weighing the virtues of gear that will be on sale in the spring... we only looked at a slim portion of your gear.
After your big three+hammock... you still have a whole kit.
I would do a full gear list in your excel sheet- everything. Packed, carried, or worn.
You probably have some other stand out low hanging fruit.

Just one example.
https://www.amazon.com/Cascade-Mount...4786958&sr=8-4
There is a popular, cheap, and fairly light set of trekking poles. Compared to the ones you hadn't even considered weighing up to this point.

People are often horribly shocked to find their diddy bag weighs pounds not ounces. Or the swiss army knife or multi-tool they carry everyday is 8-12 ounces, the 10 year old mag lite still works but weighs double what the current model does. And on and on.

Most of UL backpacking is solved simply by simply considering what is actually going along to the woods with you. Especially for folks who have been doing this awhile. Stuff works, you use it, and just like that pair of underwear older than an average junior high kid you don't put much thought into replacing it. Time flies and you got bigger problems in life than digging into the latest and greatest. The most radical act involved is simply listing your gear and placing it on a scale.

A few things will slap you in the face. A few things you'll look at and realize that you put that stuff in because Dad or your scoutmaster always carried that stuff and you haven't used it in a decade. Some things that are in there 'just in case' that it turned out that when that case actually came up you didn't use that thing anyway as it was buried in the bottom of your pack so you just figured it out. That piece of gear that came in really handy on that one trip to that one place six states away that you don't visit and doesn't have any real use in your local area.

Clothing is shockingly heavy... often overlooked and shoved in. UL folks like to pretend they can wear their camp clothes to supplement a lighter bag... not realizing that adding 10 or even 20* to your quilt rating is far far lighter than even one 'sleep shirt'. If you are not already packing the clothing because you need it or really want it... then you don't save anything adding clothing to sleep in. A lot of the 'rules' you hear about are not very accurate or applicable once you really spend time on them. Stuff newbies hear about from a fellow newbie that older hands have tried and discarded once they didn't pan out in the real world.

Many hear UL and think of buying a $400 DCF tarp to shave a pound and dismiss the idea. Most of the heavy lifting is free. It takes a little thought and some time.
Some is obvious (your sleeping bag) and some is a bit convoluted and counter-intuitive (Keeping your bridge but tuning it up).

So... keep going. Write it all down, weigh it all. Stare at it and think about it. Put it all in a box and go camping in the yard or at a car camping site. Reach only for the gear you need. If you don't take it out of the box- then don't put it in your pack. Don't be stupid or reckless. And if your back really hurts sitting there then go ahead and pull out that sit pad or chair you like. If you carry your bourbon in an eight ounce metal flask it probably carries just fine in an empty one ounce plastic pop bottle. But if yer dear ol granpappy gave you that flask on his deathbed and it makes you tear up thinking of leaving it behind then dry yer eyes and tuck the flask back in your pack.

At some point you do hit a wall where you are down to carefully debating an individual piece of gear at a handful of ounces for a handful of Twenties... but you aren't there quite yet. Even then- you can always just stop. That last 10% of cuts is tough. The easy way to handle that is let it go. As stuff wears out you upgrade rather than replace. You aren't looking to build a 5lb base load here, so the psycho end of the UL movement doesn't apply. I'd bet you can easily find 2-5lbs for your $1000 budget fairly easily and be happy enough with that if you go head to toe and look hard. Put a season in, evaluate your gear as you go, and think about what you can do next year. Don't bog down.

PS- 20 new, clean nickels weigh 100 grams. If you're concerned about your scale's accuracy that's a handy way to check.

[BillyBob58]

I just edited my post and inserted a picture of the specifications. I guess, Thermarest does not make this pad any longer and maybe it was a precursor to the Xtherm. I could get away with a shorter pad, but they only made the 25" pad in that length at the time.

Went back to Moosejaw and saw that the version they are selling is the 2019 version. The max (which is what I want due to the rectangular shape) comes in at 22 ounces and has an R Value of 5.7. The 2020 version, which is on their website, has an R Value of 6.9 and an increase of weight to 23 ounces. It is also more expensive at $235. That 6.9 R Value is insane. If I am comfortable to 20F on a pad that is rated at 4.9 - what would 6.9 be like?

Don't think the investment is worth it. Not getting the bang for the buck of only 2-3 ounces over what I currently have. And I am somewhat okay with this portion as I have never gotten a cold butt or legs. So maybe a top quilt and a tarp is where I can really shave some ounces for the dollars invested. This quest is driving me nuts. All you UL guys feel like this sometimes?

Yes, sometimes the value just does not seem to be there, a large $ cost to save a few oz or degrees of warmth. But, a jump from R5.7 to 6.9 for 1 oz weight? WOW! Especially if buying new, and temps below 20F or way below were guaranteed, it might make sense. For that matter, how much weight is that over my All Season 4.9? Probably not much. As for how much warmer than your 4.9(which we don't actually know the limits of for sure, do we?), consider that 509-T203-KG, laying directly on the 5.7 pad(does that make a dif?)- in a single layer REI bridge- at minus 10 plus wind chill(no tarp and some wind) was plenty warm.(of course, that does not guarantee we would be). So that 6.9 should be some kind of warm. If you needed it, and especially if you didn't already have an investment in a pad, it would probably be well worth it. If not, the extra oz and especially extra $, just not worth it. Especially since you can augment your All Season with a thin CCF pad, dirt cheap. Which, BTW, you might already have with you as a sit pad.

The amazing thing is that we actually now have discussions where folks are just as comfy, maybe even more comfy, with a pad in certain types of hammocks. Thus reaping all the other benefits of pads. Those that can be at least as comfy- or even close enough to as comfy- on pads in certain types of hammocks are lucky in several ways.

I am really amazed: R6.9 at 23 oz? And pretty low volume, probably less volume than a zero UQ? Impressive.

[BillyBob58]

BTW, I just weighed my NeoAir All Season 4.9 long wide: 25.9 oz. So IF their current specs are accurate, the idea that that new X therm could be 6.9R at 3 oz less is, again, impressive. But maybe that newest X therm is a trimmer cut, or a mummy shape? I need to go have a look at it.