BillyBob-
https://sectionhiker.com/how-does-th...t-neoair-work/
Check this out, the photo mainly.
I know we've discussed how thermal pane windows work and other things so I won't beat you over the head with it again.
I have talked with Duct Tape a good bit at WB and have no arguments with his use of foam....
Other than you need a pulk full of it to haul it he's probably correct, especially for his deep cold needs stretching well past zero.
Hot air does not rise.
Foam is probably the ideal insulation for deep winter hammock use. At some point you simply have a hard time pumping enough heat into an UQ. Even with 10" of loft... you only pump so much heat into it from your body. Supplementing with hot water bottles or extra thick top quilts can help drive more heat down... but there are limits.
Some pads have foam, some have synthetic insulation, some have down. Technically all insulation simply traps air, ideally in very small pockets.
Neo air pads are JUST trapped air. In larger chambers than any other insulation.
It's basically Reflectix on steroids.
It doesn't really have anything to do with experience or pad use or any tricks. Just the nature of the product.
Could you pair the Xtherm pad with other stuff to get lower? Yes. A piece of reflectix or even as little as 1/8" gossamer gear foam may take you 5-10* further. A 1/4" CCF or your blue wally world foam might get you further.
(the wally world is a combination of CCF (closed cell foam) and open cell foam).
But that's not what I look to do. I test a pad (or any gear) on it's own merits first.
I (and others) have already reached the conclusion that the Xtherm models are exceptional winter pads on the ground. All on their own. Just one simple pad that is usable in anything but the most extreme winter conditions. And from there- many who add a closed cell pad are only adding one as a common sense backup to pad failure. They are not adding one because they need it.
So all I wanted to know; can the best ground pad (in terms of weight, pack size, and function) work as well in a hammock?
Unfortunately that brilliant use of multiple chambers of trapped air rather than physical insulation is the exact weak point when it is exposed to convection losses in a hammock. It just is what it is. The pad was not made to deal with this situation.
All that said: We are talking bridges. We are talking bridges paired with a pad for an efficient system that can handle going to ground. We are talking people willing to go to ground.
Therefore; we don't have a problem.
The Xtherm is still awesome ON THE GROUND. Wherever that magic number occurs for any of us that it stops being warm enough in the air... we can simply drop to the ground and sleep soundly. So if I say around 20* it 'fails'... that just means that I go to ground. If another user managed to sleep in the air longer than I... so be it.
I don't add pads, supplement with clothes, start a fire, pack up, or do anything. I simply do what I planned to do with the gear I selected and sleep on the ground where the pad goes right back to working as it was designed.
Now if we are talking 'hang or die' hammock hangers- then there is a problem.
If we are talking gathered end users who will get tangled up in a pad- they are already using an UQ regardless.
But for bridge users who appreciate the pad for it's many advantages... the Xtherm has quite a bit going for it.
Light weight, small pack size, comfortable enough in the bridge, tolerable on the ground.
We are discussing a system that can go to zero or even a hair past it.
The caveat- at roughly 20* you will HAVE to go to ground to stay warm.
For some here that will be a dealbreaker perhaps, but for me it is not. Simply knowing how the gear works and what to expect is enough for me. I have even slept in the bridge for a few hours until chilled, then just loosened the suspension and dropped the whole bridge to the ground with little more trouble than a pee so I didn't disturb my top insulation too much in the process. From a comfort standpoint- I scored a couple of 'premium' hours of sleep in the bridge, then a few more 'acceptable' hours of sleep on the ground.
From a comfort standpoint- if there is a decent bit of snow on the ground then I find that just as comfy as the bridge for the most part.
If the temps were likely to be zero or below- I would leave the bridge at home and bring a torso length of foam (for sitting around and sleeping) instead. No sense pretending I'll sleep in the air at all.
If temps are around 20 with a chance of dipping lower- the bridge goes along with the backup being simply going to ground.
Keep it simple and it is a very versatile system.
As mentioned earlier in this thread- think of it as a GROUND System supplemented with a bridge hammock.
I find that makes more sense for most folks if you take the focus off the hammock.
Ground cloth, Pad, top quilt or mummy, and a tarp. Minimal ground system.
To convert it- add the bridge and increase the tarp size. But still see it first as a ground system and you're less likely to get too hung up on the bridge related details.
So the Xtherm fits right in there down to zero.
For your neck of the woods; seems like a very sweet system with the only thing you change season to season being your top insulation. You could lighten up a little for warmer weather with a lower rated Neo-Air pad, but the xtherm is not too hot to sleep on and you can always let air out of it in the bridge to reduce it's R-value.
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