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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by fallkniven View Post
    I only read your original post, but if you truly want to get your weight as low as possible you dont really have a choice but youll have to learn to get comfortable in a gathered end. I was in the same boat, loved my bmbh. Took a good handful nights to start getting used to the g.end but now i like it fine.
    Lightest setup i found is Dutchs netless in hexon 1.0 (7oz) or his side zip in the summer (12oz).
    UCRs or the new fancy dyneema straps tied to hammock, either setup is 2oz.
    Cuben tarp, I went with the HG palace but i like coverage.
    Get 950fill quilts.
    Change stuff to what you can afford/prefer, but thats how you do it.
    My whole sleep system tarp pillow stakes everything is just under 4lbs and thats with the big tarp.
    If you really want, jrbs new hammock is only 7oz without the poles....
    If I may ask... what is the magic number that would have kept you in the bridge?
    That said- having told many folks to try a gathered end before a bridge I can't really argue with your point.

    But as someone who is working on UL bridges I like to hear from folks who either gave up on a bridge or would jump to one.

    Assuming you prefer not to sleep on the ground and a gathered end doesn't bother you- the only true advantage a bridge has is pad use if being objective. You'll never beat the lightest ground setup with a hammock setup... but if a bridge can get you within a pound or so it seems a nice way to go for mixed trips.

  2. #52
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    BillyBob-

    https://sectionhiker.com/how-does-th...t-neoair-work/

    Check this out, the photo mainly.
    I know we've discussed how thermal pane windows work and other things so I won't beat you over the head with it again.

    I have talked with Duct Tape a good bit at WB and have no arguments with his use of foam....
    Other than you need a pulk full of it to haul it he's probably correct, especially for his deep cold needs stretching well past zero.

    Hot air does not rise.
    Foam is probably the ideal insulation for deep winter hammock use. At some point you simply have a hard time pumping enough heat into an UQ. Even with 10" of loft... you only pump so much heat into it from your body. Supplementing with hot water bottles or extra thick top quilts can help drive more heat down... but there are limits.

    Some pads have foam, some have synthetic insulation, some have down. Technically all insulation simply traps air, ideally in very small pockets.

    Neo air pads are JUST trapped air. In larger chambers than any other insulation.
    It's basically Reflectix on steroids.

    It doesn't really have anything to do with experience or pad use or any tricks. Just the nature of the product.

    Could you pair the Xtherm pad with other stuff to get lower? Yes. A piece of reflectix or even as little as 1/8" gossamer gear foam may take you 5-10* further. A 1/4" CCF or your blue wally world foam might get you further.

    (the wally world is a combination of CCF (closed cell foam) and open cell foam).

    But that's not what I look to do. I test a pad (or any gear) on it's own merits first.
    I (and others) have already reached the conclusion that the Xtherm models are exceptional winter pads on the ground. All on their own. Just one simple pad that is usable in anything but the most extreme winter conditions. And from there- many who add a closed cell pad are only adding one as a common sense backup to pad failure. They are not adding one because they need it.

    So all I wanted to know; can the best ground pad (in terms of weight, pack size, and function) work as well in a hammock?
    Unfortunately that brilliant use of multiple chambers of trapped air rather than physical insulation is the exact weak point when it is exposed to convection losses in a hammock. It just is what it is. The pad was not made to deal with this situation.

    All that said: We are talking bridges. We are talking bridges paired with a pad for an efficient system that can handle going to ground. We are talking people willing to go to ground.

    Therefore; we don't have a problem.
    The Xtherm is still awesome ON THE GROUND. Wherever that magic number occurs for any of us that it stops being warm enough in the air... we can simply drop to the ground and sleep soundly. So if I say around 20* it 'fails'... that just means that I go to ground. If another user managed to sleep in the air longer than I... so be it.

    I don't add pads, supplement with clothes, start a fire, pack up, or do anything. I simply do what I planned to do with the gear I selected and sleep on the ground where the pad goes right back to working as it was designed.

    Now if we are talking 'hang or die' hammock hangers- then there is a problem.
    If we are talking gathered end users who will get tangled up in a pad- they are already using an UQ regardless.

    But for bridge users who appreciate the pad for it's many advantages... the Xtherm has quite a bit going for it.
    Light weight, small pack size, comfortable enough in the bridge, tolerable on the ground.
    We are discussing a system that can go to zero or even a hair past it.

    The caveat- at roughly 20* you will HAVE to go to ground to stay warm.

    For some here that will be a dealbreaker perhaps, but for me it is not. Simply knowing how the gear works and what to expect is enough for me. I have even slept in the bridge for a few hours until chilled, then just loosened the suspension and dropped the whole bridge to the ground with little more trouble than a pee so I didn't disturb my top insulation too much in the process. From a comfort standpoint- I scored a couple of 'premium' hours of sleep in the bridge, then a few more 'acceptable' hours of sleep on the ground.

    From a comfort standpoint- if there is a decent bit of snow on the ground then I find that just as comfy as the bridge for the most part.

    If the temps were likely to be zero or below- I would leave the bridge at home and bring a torso length of foam (for sitting around and sleeping) instead. No sense pretending I'll sleep in the air at all.

    If temps are around 20 with a chance of dipping lower- the bridge goes along with the backup being simply going to ground.

    Keep it simple and it is a very versatile system.
    As mentioned earlier in this thread- think of it as a GROUND System supplemented with a bridge hammock.
    I find that makes more sense for most folks if you take the focus off the hammock.
    Ground cloth, Pad, top quilt or mummy, and a tarp. Minimal ground system.
    To convert it- add the bridge and increase the tarp size. But still see it first as a ground system and you're less likely to get too hung up on the bridge related details.

    So the Xtherm fits right in there down to zero.
    For your neck of the woods; seems like a very sweet system with the only thing you change season to season being your top insulation. You could lighten up a little for warmer weather with a lower rated Neo-Air pad, but the xtherm is not too hot to sleep on and you can always let air out of it in the bridge to reduce it's R-value.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Don't forget your head insulation- biggest mistake new quilt users make. It seems silly but even on cool nights it can make a massive difference in the experience. Otherwise- happy to hear you made some big leaps at a good price. Good timing on that!
    Because I ride a lot in the winter, head insulation is easy for me. With a Mountain Hardware Windstopper Beanie, a Hotmock neck gaiter, I can stand pretty cold temps with that. If it gets too cold, I have a full face balaclava. My nose is the one area that always stays cold, so nothing is really gonna help that area. The Hotmock has a pouch in the back of the neck that you can insert one of those hand warmers. This localized heat is right next to all the major arteries that carry warm blood to the rest of you body. I only insert the hand warmer if really cold and in emergency situations as this really rises the body temp.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    BillyBob-

    https://sectionhiker.com/how-does-th...t-neoair-work/

    Check this out, the photo mainly.
    I know we've discussed how thermal pane windows work and other things so I won't beat you over the head with it again.

    I have talked with Duct Tape a good bit at WB and have no arguments with his use of foam....
    Other than you need a pulk full of it to haul it he's probably correct, especially for his deep cold needs stretching well past zero.

    Hot air does not rise.
    Foam is probably the ideal insulation for deep winter hammock use. At some point you simply have a hard time pumping enough heat into an UQ. Even with 10" of loft... you only pump so much heat into it from your body. Supplementing with hot water bottles or extra thick top quilts can help drive more heat down... but there are limits.

    Some pads have foam, some have synthetic insulation, some have down. Technically all insulation simply traps air, ideally in very small pockets.

    Neo air pads are JUST trapped air. In larger chambers than any other insulation.
    It's basically Reflectix on steroids.

    It doesn't really have anything to do with experience or pad use or any tricks. Just the nature of the product.

    Could you pair the Xtherm pad with other stuff to get lower? Yes. A piece of reflectix or even as little as 1/8" gossamer gear foam may take you 5-10* further. A 1/4" CCF or your blue wally world foam might get you further.

    (the wally world is a combination of CCF (closed cell foam) and open cell foam).

    But that's not what I look to do. I test a pad (or any gear) on it's own merits first.
    I (and others) have already reached the conclusion that the Xtherm models are exceptional winter pads on the ground. All on their own. Just one simple pad that is usable in anything but the most extreme winter conditions. And from there- many who add a closed cell pad are only adding one as a common sense backup to pad failure. They are not adding one because they need it.

    So all I wanted to know; can the best ground pad (in terms of weight, pack size, and function) work as well in a hammock?
    Unfortunately that brilliant use of multiple chambers of trapped air rather than physical insulation is the exact weak point when it is exposed to convection losses in a hammock. It just is what it is. The pad was not made to deal with this situation.

    All that said: We are talking bridges. We are talking bridges paired with a pad for an efficient system that can handle going to ground. We are talking people willing to go to ground.

    Therefore; we don't have a problem.
    The Xtherm is still awesome ON THE GROUND. Wherever that magic number occurs for any of us that it stops being warm enough in the air... we can simply drop to the ground and sleep soundly. So if I say around 20* it 'fails'... that just means that I go to ground. If another user managed to sleep in the air longer than I... so be it.

    I don't add pads, supplement with clothes, start a fire, pack up, or do anything. I simply do what I planned to do with the gear I selected and sleep on the ground where the pad goes right back to working as it was designed.

    Now if we are talking 'hang or die' hammock hangers- then there is a problem.
    If we are talking gathered end users who will get tangled up in a pad- they are already using an UQ regardless.

    But for bridge users who appreciate the pad for it's many advantages... the Xtherm has quite a bit going for it.
    Light weight, small pack size, comfortable enough in the bridge, tolerable on the ground.
    We are discussing a system that can go to zero or even a hair past it.

    The caveat- at roughly 20* you will HAVE to go to ground to stay warm.

    For some here that will be a dealbreaker perhaps, but for me it is not. Simply knowing how the gear works and what to expect is enough for me. I have even slept in the bridge for a few hours until chilled, then just loosened the suspension and dropped the whole bridge to the ground with little more trouble than a pee so I didn't disturb my top insulation too much in the process. From a comfort standpoint- I scored a couple of 'premium' hours of sleep in the bridge, then a few more 'acceptable' hours of sleep on the ground.

    From a comfort standpoint- if there is a decent bit of snow on the ground then I find that just as comfy as the bridge for the most part.

    If the temps were likely to be zero or below- I would leave the bridge at home and bring a torso length of foam (for sitting around and sleeping) instead. No sense pretending I'll sleep in the air at all.

    If temps are around 20 with a chance of dipping lower- the bridge goes along with the backup being simply going to ground.

    Keep it simple and it is a very versatile system.
    As mentioned earlier in this thread- think of it as a GROUND System supplemented with a bridge hammock.
    I find that makes more sense for most folks if you take the focus off the hammock.
    Ground cloth, Pad, top quilt or mummy, and a tarp. Minimal ground system.
    To convert it- add the bridge and increase the tarp size. But still see it first as a ground system and you're less likely to get too hung up on the bridge related details.

    So the Xtherm fits right in there down to zero.
    For your neck of the woods; seems like a very sweet system with the only thing you change season to season being your top insulation. You could lighten up a little for warmer weather with a lower rated Neo-Air pad, but the xtherm is not too hot to sleep on and you can always let air out of it in the bridge to reduce it's R-value.
    That article was great. This section caught my interest:

    Think about it this way: when you lie on a NeoAir sleeping pad, your body heat warms the air inside the mattress baffles. The metallic coating helps reflect that heat back at your back and helps regulate the rate in which the trapped heat is radiated out of the pad and back into the air surrounding you.

    This point is extremely important and so glad I saw it. What this means, if you take a CF pad or a piece of reflective pad, you need to put this UNDER the NeoAir. If you were to apply this between your back and the NeoAir, you are negating the point of the reflective baffles in the Neo and not taking advantage of the furnace maker.

    I have considered taking the back pad out of the JamLite 50 backpack and replacing this with my reflective windshield screen. Once in camp, I would place this reflective between the bottom of the Neo and the bottom layer of the BMBH sleeve. The existing backpack barrier weighs in at 1.8 ounces and the reflective screen is 7.5 ounces, so I pick up an additional 5.7 ounces by swapping these two out. Ouch. Maybe this is just a cold weather alternative on those trips where temps are expected to drop near zero.

    Reflect_7.5oz.jpg
    Last edited by fullcount; 11-27-2019 at 12:19.

  5. #55
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    Going to Ground:

    "For some here that will be a dealbreaker perhaps, but for me it is not. Simply knowing how the gear works and what to expect is enough for me. I have even slept in the bridge for a few hours until chilled, then just loosened the suspension and dropped the whole bridge to the ground with little more trouble than a pee so I didn't disturb my top insulation too much in the process. From a comfort standpoint- I scored a couple of 'premium' hours of sleep in the bridge, then a few more 'acceptable' hours of sleep on the ground."

    JB - I had never actually thought of this simple technique - loosening the suspension and letting the BMBH hit the ground with maybe a ground cloth underneath. Thanks for the tip.

  6. #56
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    Reflectix isn't your best bet. https://www.gossamergear.com/product...o-length#specs
    Something like that, or a thin light foam is better. But you are quite correct- foam or reflectix should be 'to the wind' regardless.

    Reflectix is the same basic technology as the Neo-Air. So one more layer of mylar and air doesn't help as much to cut convection for you as foam would.

    There is a reason that multi-pane glass windows use thin layers of gas trapped between each pane... but rather than get into thermodynamics of fluid (not my area of expertise) the Neo-Air series is more like triple pane windows with 1" gaps rather than 3/8" gaps between panes.

    Yes the Mylar does help with radiation losses and reflecting some heat, but mainly you're still just trapping air. It's basically a space blanket and it can only do so much for you. And having lots of layers of space blanket doesn't really make you much warmer.

    Also- when you put a hand on a thermalpane window it will feel cold. It won't feel as cold as the air on the otherside of the window, but it will be much colder than room temperature. Pretty much same deal with the Neo-Air in the air. Your heat helps some, but not as much as you think. Because the chambers are very large (relatively speaking) as the air cools and falls it creates a flow within the chamber. The air then begins to move in that outer chamber stripping heat from the upper chamber faster than you can keep up.

    By putting it on the ground- there is no wind blowing across it stripping the heat away from the outer layer. The chamber against the ground becomes more static internally and you can achieve an equilibrium with the ground under you.

    Adding a thin bit of foam under the pad in hammock use would help... ore foam would help more...but again that brings us back to my point:

    If you just need to go to ground to stop the wind from stripping away your warm air, that will always weigh less and be more effective than adding more pads under you.

    And for what it's worth regarding the tip to drop the bridge- If it's looking like 'one of those nights' then be sure to clear the ground under your hammock before you go to bed. Hammock folks fall out of that habit since it doesn't matter, but last thing you want to do at 2 am and zero degrees is drop your air pad onto a sharp stick or other debris and pop it.

    As for an easy ground sheet- https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-Ki...QPD2/202262330

    It's that time of year that you can pick up the Polycro window film at any hardware store. This stuff is durable enough, waterproof, and packs down to nothing. It's an easy thing to store for any pad wielding bridge user and has lots of uses. If you plan to go to ground often there may be better choices out there, but this is a commonly used SUL ground sheet. Tyvek (basic housewrap) isn't technically waterproof nor does it pack that great, but it is good for grit/abrasion so some carry that with polycro over it.

    Cuben, Sil-nylon, or PU coated fabrics are more traditional options if you want something you don't need to replace as often.

  7. #57
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Don't forget your head insulation- biggest mistake new quilt users make. It seems silly but even on cool nights it can make a massive difference in the experience. Otherwise- happy to hear you made some big leaps at a good price. Good timing on that!
    Major ditto on that. Seems to me the amount of insulation, in the all important head and neck area, that is lost by giving up a mummy bag's thick hood and neck collar, is greatly underrated.

  8. #58
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    BillyBob-

    https://sectionhiker.com/how-does-th...t-neoair-work/

    Check this out, the photo mainly.
    I know we've discussed how thermal pane windows work and other things so I won't beat you over the head with it again.

    I have talked with Duct Tape a good bit at WB and have no arguments with his use of foam....
    Other than you need a pulk full of it to haul it he's probably correct, especially for his deep cold needs stretching well past zero.

    .................................................. .................

    All that said: We are talking bridges. We are talking bridges paired with a pad for an efficient system that can handle going to ground. We are talking people willing to go to ground.

    Therefore; we don't have a problem.
    The Xtherm is still awesome ON THE GROUND. Wherever that magic number occurs for any of us that it stops being warm enough in the air... we can simply drop to the ground and sleep soundly. So if I say around 20* it 'fails'... that just means that I go to ground. If another user managed to sleep in the air longer than I... so be it.

    I don't add pads, supplement with clothes, start a fire, pack up, or do anything. I simply do what I planned to do with the gear I selected and sleep on the ground where the pad goes right back to working as it was designed.

    Now if we are talking 'hang or die' hammock hangers- then there is a problem.....................................
    Keep it simple and it is a very versatile system.
    As mentioned earlier in this thread- think of it as a GROUND System supplemented with a bridge hammock.
    I find that makes more sense for most folks if you take the focus off the hammock.
    Ground cloth, Pad, top quilt or mummy, and a tarp. Minimal ground system.
    To convert it- add the bridge and increase the tarp size. But still see it first as a ground system and you're less likely to get too hung up on the bridge related details.

    So the Xtherm fits right in there down to zero.
    For your neck of the woods; seems like a very sweet system with the only thing you change season to season being your top insulation. You could lighten up a little for warmer weather with a lower rated Neo-Air pad, but the xtherm is not too hot to sleep on and you can always let air out of it in the bridge to reduce it's R-value.
    Thanks Bill for that link about how NeoAirs work, as well as all your other info, particularly about pad use in bridges. While I have always known about going to ground when the air just ain't working(picked that tip up back at the beginning from Ed Speer: if cold and can't fix it, just go to ground!), and I have actually been forced to do so once or twice in the last 13 years, your way of putting it makes it more attractive. I have read that in the past from you, and there is just something about "just loosen your suspension and lower the bridge to the ground" that makes the entire concept more attractive. Especially after starting in the air and the maybe finding yourself cold at 0200 - has happened to me. I came out of the hammock and got a pad and slept on the ground.

    Ever since I(in the past) read your description "just lower the bridge to the ground", I have even wondered how it might work to lower the bridge with pad so that it just barely contacts the ground and ground sheet.I have wondered if that might solve most cold issues- it would certainly block any wind under the hammock issues. And the pad would now be(even if just barely) in contact with the warmer ground or snow. And perhaps, if weight is still supported very slightly by the hammock suspension, a little more of the hammock comfort might be maintained. Just a thought, might not be any advantage. I might give that a try some day.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-27-2019 at 15:35.

  9. #59
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    BillyBob-

    I tried the low to the ground thing early on. Being a carpenter by trade (and climber/arborist in the past) it's quite noticeable how quickly the wind picks up as you rise above the surrounding stuff. Even on a still day you can feel a breeze if you get up on the roof of a suburban house or crown of a tree in wooded areas.

    But in our rough range of use- 1-3' off the ground I don't think it makes enough difference so best to just stick with 'chair height' and be comfy. Open air seems to be open air- 2" or 2' of it.
    So at least in terms of tarpless (topless) hanging it doesn't seem to matter much in my experience.

    The big help is if you are willing to hang low enough with a tarp that you can get your tarp to contact the ground. More observation than hard fact, but hammock folks tend to like being up in the air with the tarp high enough they can easily walk in. Simply being willing to drop your whole setup cuts out quite a bit of the windchill and leaves you dealing with ambient air temps rather than 'real feel' or windchill factored temps. Sure you could add a sock or spindrift type cover but you already have a tarp along if you're willing to duck under it and drop to one knee to get in and out of the bridge you can effectively duplicate the effect and leave that piece of gear at home. If we are talking UL gear... you'd be far better off bumping your top quilt up 20* for a four ounces than adding a 12 ounce sock.

    I have found that with a bridge, especially in the cold, that overkill on the top quilt is really the only way to help drive bodyheat down. So more and more I find myself going that route and stacking top quilts or bringing a zero and an xtherm for 20* for example. The BMBH does wrap you much more than my bridges and performs closest to a gathered end so YMMV.

    As fer simply kissing the ground and trying for the best of both worlds; I struck out there too.
    The bridge just ended up being more uncomfortable that way than if I was just on the ground. Your butt drags hard and when you stretch out it still feels odd since the bridge suspension never really engages properly.

    In part because I've always been UL minded I tried getting away with stuff like 1.0 HyperD early on when I was switching over. I had a raised ranch at the time with a walkout back deck I hung from at the time and tried it.
    Unfortunately it didn't take much to chew up the bridge bottom that way and it was frustratingly annoying to try to dial it in any cleaner. Part of the thing I always liked about bridges was how easy they are to hang; so the extra fiddle factor of trying to get this just right was just too annoying for me to pursue.

    What sorta works- is to elevate just one side so you don't sway at all. But if you pick up the torso end you'll tend to still get chilled (or ball up your neck).

    Where it doesn't matter much is in some deep snow, but if you got deep snow might as well just lay your pad on it and be done.

    I did like using this trick though to elevate the foot end on my speed hikes to reduce swelling. It does put a bit of negative pressure on your knees though.

    Still worth trying the idea for you personally- just be careful you aren't abrading the bridge.
    If I remember right your homesetup is over grass so probably not as risky a proposition for you as over my old wood deck was.

  10. #60
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    BillyBob-

    I tried the low to the ground thing early on. Being a carpenter by trade (and climber/arborist in the past) it's quite noticeable how quickly the wind picks up as you rise above the surrounding stuff. Even on a still day you can feel a breeze if you get up on the roof of a suburban house or crown of a tree in wooded areas.

    But in our rough range of use- 1-3' off the ground I don't think it makes enough difference so best to just stick with 'chair height' and be comfy. Open air seems to be open air- 2" or 2' of it.
    Dang it, I should have known! Another theory shot to heck!



    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    So at least in terms of tarpless (topless) hanging it doesn't seem to matter much in my experience.....The big help is if you are willing to hang low enough with a tarp that you can get your tarp to contact the ground.

    Or maybe not! Actually, I was thinking with a tarp. And I am thinking more like an 1/8” or less, I.E. just barely contacting the ground after sag once I get in. Of course, getting such a precise adjustment might prove quite difficult. But worst case, I am just plain old on the ground. What I’m thinking is: after I get in, I could reach out and if I pushed on the ground, I could just barely move the hammock scraping along the ground or ground cloth. Which might add a little comfort compared to pad solidly on the ground. Or not. But, probably a ridiculous idea. Still, I might want to try it just for fun.

    As fer simply kissing the ground and trying for the best of both worlds; I struck out there too.
    The bridge just ended up being more uncomfortable that way than if I was just on the ground. Your butt drags hard and when you stretch out it still feels odd since the bridge suspension never really engages properly.
    Well, manure, there goes my plans again! Seems logical that it might be a bit more comfy, but in the real world things don’t always work out. I should have known that you have already been there and done that!

    Still worth trying the idea for you personally- just be careful you aren't abrading the bridge.
    If I remember right your homesetup is over grass so probably not as risky a proposition for you as over my old wood deck was.
    Yeah, I probably will play with it just for fun. And at home I do have a grass base with nothing sticker like, but either way I will use a ground cloth like the one you recommended. I’m not taking any chances on even pin holes in the fabric supporting my 200-226 lb self! What the hey, it is just one more thing to play around with under safe conditions. My wife and neighbors already think I am insane anyway, so I might as well do some additional testing. Once serious winter gets here. I really like to test a lot of different approaches, it is for some reason fun for me. (OTOH, unless I travel, I am unlikely to ever need to go to ground for warmth where I live)

    Thanks for all of your advice based on your experience!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-27-2019 at 20:30.

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