Quest for Ultra Lite Hammock System

[fullcount]

So to answer your trekking pole question I'll reference your first post's pictures.

Here's a bit of a simple disclosure... I don't own a BMBH. I've seen em, layed in one, don't like them. To be fair- I build my own so obviously I have some strong feelings on it.

Took a look at your website and some of your stuff looks interesting. As far as the BMBH - I did not like it at first either (when I was out with an UQ). Once I slid the 25" wide pad in the sleeve, changed my whole perspective about it. Absolutely love the way it feels - that is the reason I have not considered a change for 4 years. The comfort was worth the weight penalty. Fortunately, after reading yours and a few other comments, I have come to the realization that it is the other items of my sleep system that are the low hanging fruit.

I note you don't have trekking poles listed in your current setup. And that you plan to add some 'monopod' type poles?
Do you currently use trekking poles? What do those weigh?

I am 59 years old and when I started hiking again about 10 years ago, I realized real quick, that trekking poles were a needed item and have hiked with them ever since. BUTTTTT - I never gave any thought to the weight or quality of those trekking poles and to this point, need to ask further questions. I have been using a cheap set from Walmart that entire time. Don't even ask me what brand or how much they weigh, because I did not thing they factored into the "back, knee, ankle" stress number. I have always considered those to be the area to focus on, not the swing of my arms...but hey, I might do some further investigation on this.


Do you weigh less than 200 pounds?[/I] - I weigh in at 215 and cannot seem to get any lower. I ride my bide faithfully to keep the cardio and legs in shape..., but I like I food So the more I ride, the stronger the appetite. Guess I am not going to help the "back, knee, ankle" factor too much with my love affair with Dairy Queen

Do you currently use trekking poles and what model do you use? - Answered above

Before you can talk trekking poles or carbon fiber spreaders- are you willing to modify your BMBH ? - Yes, but after reading your posts on the risk to a trekking pole catastrophe - I am going to forgo this mod. I will leave the two end rings near the hammock, but cut the center ring and instead, use Amsteal with loops on the end to replace the two web straps and have them come together with a Dutch double clip, to meet at a whoopie sling / tree strap system. Thinking that doing this on both sides of the hammock is a safe bet. I have never worked with Amsteal or whoopie sling, but thinking I need to get the two web replacements at the same length with loops on the end. If I were to give you the measurements of that length, could you help me out in this area?

Even after all that- please realize that you're probably just horse trading 8-16 ounces or so going down this road. Some of it is cheap, some of it not. - Understood. You and others advice have given me a better picture of how to get the system down the 2 - 3 lbs I am looking to shave (if not more). They are:

1 - Make the suspension changes discussed - < $50
2 - Swap out the pad to an Xtherm Max pad with an R value of 5.7 - $149 at Moosejaw
3 - Change out tarp system to a Dyneema style - - About $400
4 - Sleeping bag or top quilt - not sure about that yet. I have looked at the SMR Inferno system and kind of liked the top quilt side with the hood, but since I have never slept in a TQ and I am a side sleeper, just concerned about that open back. That really looks like an entry point for a cold wake up call. If I go with a bag, I will drop the Big Agnes system (since my pad will be in the sleeve and does not need to attach) and look for a 15F or better 800 fill or better bag. - This sounds like another $400 investment.

All in - I am looking at a $1000 investment. Lot of money for something I do maybe four or five hikes a year and two or three cycle tours a year. On the other hand, if I had known what I know now, I would not have enough hiking and cycling gear to outfit three or four others (yeah, bunch of stuff in my man cave....).

The next pound or so is doable but I would probably let the dust settle (financially and on the spreadsheet) with those first three items before you go looking too hard at the bridge itself.
But if you can splice and your season is over, you can start working on the bridge now and consider the CF spreader bar upgrade while dodging the whole trekking pole mess too.

The pound after that is what gets expensive, difficult and at times requires some real gram weenie whacking that many here find obscene.

Thanks for the help JB and others....Good stuff.

PS: I think I attached the full spreadsheet to this post that has all the systems that I was looking to evaluate. The way the spreadsheet is structured is that if you place a number in the boxed off area, it updates the total cost and weight columns to give me a picture of investment for that system and total weight. I can monkey with a system to see what it would look like in the winter vs. the summer. Maybe someone else could use a tool like this, so I attached it. There are some cells that are protected (no password) to ensure formula's don't get messed up.


Just tested the file that I attached. Looks like the protected cells did not translate when uploaded. Not sure why. So take care on some cells with formulas - maybe update your copy with protected areas if you don't want to mess up the functionality of the sheet.

Hammock_Weight.xlsx

[Just Bill]

Above 200lbs- it gets a bit complicated jacking around with bridge suspensions.
I'm mildly familiar with the geometry of the ridgerunner simply due to it being very popular. So I bought one last year to have on hand so I could better compare and/or answer questions.
So bit hard for me to comment offhand on specifically how to modify the BMBH but I could likely say 36" dogbones would be safe. If you're picking up the suspension from Dutch, he sells dogbones too so that's an easy shopping list to build.

Overall sounds like you have other things to work on regardless.

On your big three from before-
Biggest potential savings is the sleeping bag/gear/quilt.
I don't know much about SMR or the inferno. It does appear to be a good idea for someone like you... A hybrid/bottom entry mummy style bag that is as easy to use as a top quilt.
Course half the advantage of a top quilt is that it's super easy to vent when you are sleeping outside the temp rating.
The other issue is that since you will go to ground- might not be fun wrestling with that thing if you every sleep on your side.

Not to talk crap about them, but just taking a trained eye to the spec sheet- 10.1 ounces of 800 FP seems a hair light to me, but not totally unreasonable to be fair.
Afterall- the western mountaineering summerlight uses 10 ounces of fill and that is a full mummy.

An enlightened equipment 30* enigma (with good footbox and 850 fill) uses 12.37 ounces of down in it's regular regular side and still has no hood to fill.
That comes in at 16.5 ounces for the that size which is fairly generous in cut.

So bottom line for me- that SMR bag looks like an interesting 40* top quilt with integrated hood concept. But it's probably a pretty slim cut for those of us who like our dairy queen (or beer in my case).

I prefer to pair my Top quilt with a separate head piece.
A- I'm already carrying some headwear like a beenie, balaclava, etc. In warmer temps that may be enough.
B- I can easily add to the system something like a Hoodlum (insulated hood)- https://enlightenedequipment.com/hoodlum-stock/
This allows me to use the piece in the morning if it's chilly while I pack up. The worst thing about a mummy bag is getting out of one... keeping the 'hood' of the mummy on while you pack up and move about is handy.
C-In the hammock and on the ground, I can easily roll over without tangling things up or worse; breathing into my bag. By far one big struggle folks have with mummy bags is changing position. Even in a hammock you often roll to one side even if you don't fully side sleep.

But point being- take a hard look at sleep gear immediately. There are lots of good black friday deals happening and this is the week to get the most bang for your buck.

Tarps- that DCF tarp will be the same DCF tarp for the foreseeable future, so no rush on that.

Pads- Keep in mind, they just swapped out the T-rest lineup for 2020. So what you are seeing everywhere is the 2019 clearance prices (like moosejaw).
That said; good deal if you are not interested in the new models, but I for one feel the valve/pump sack upgrade is something that Thermarest has been lagging on a bit. I really like that feature on my Exped pads and would consider paying the extra $50 for the newer models.

Also- as mentioned- Do you NEED the R value bump?
Your current pad is a 2.2 and you claim it works fine to the 30's.
If you could deal with the non-rectangular Xlite at 4.4 R... wouldn't that be the better upgrade?
Is most of your camping in fairer weather than 30's?

My thoughts after a winter or two testing pads:
FOR THE GROUND- the Xlite series remains the gold standard and lines up very realistically as a summer, three season, winter (Uberlight/Xlite/Xtherm) respectively.
FOR THE AIR- you have to take a full season off. That means Uberlight is only good for high summer use, xlite dies in the mid 40's, and the Xtherm around freezing or a hair under.

For me in my bridge system... that means than an unexpectedly cold night may force me to ground.
If I have an Xlite and it dips into the 30's, I can easily go to ground to solve the problem as that pad works fine.
But for my more typical three season temps of mid 40's or so... I'm good in the air.
As the season turns to 30 being more typical at night... I need to bump it up to the xtherm.

So long as you are comfortable with that limitation... you can go lighter.
And if we're being honest- most of us UL folks 'cheat' and do own more than one 'thing'. If I had to pick one- the Xtherm works year round. But since I can afford to own two... I do.

But if you really like the rectangle shape (which I understand)... then Xtherm Max is your only real option as of now.
Just realize you're only shaving a few ounces with that upgrade- which to me makes it a low priority unless you plan to hit the woods soon and want a winter worthy pad.

I will be picking up that newer X therm max when it's out as my broader shoulders make the rectangle more suitable than the tapered mummy shape I currently own... at least when talking bridge use specifically.

FWIW- when it gets truly cold (around zero) I think a bridge becomes a poor choice.
I'd rather just slap my large Xtherm on the snow and bundle up in a good mummy bag.
If I choose to hang- I'll deal with a gathered end for a night or two as that is easier to insulate.

[cmc4free]

But point being- take a hard look at sleep gear immediately. There are lots of good black friday deals happening and this is the week to get the most bang for your buck.

Tarps- that DCF tarp will be the same DCF tarp for the foreseeable future, so no rush on that.

On the other hand, if you know you're going forward with these things, HG is about to launch a sale where you can save 10-20% off your entire order. Sales on new DCF tarps are few and far between, so it's something to keep in mind. Topquilts available there, too.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...SIDE-THIS-POST!

[Just Bill]

On the other hand, if you know you're going forward with these things, HG is about to launch a sale where you can save 10-20% off your entire order. Sales on new DCF tarps are few and far between, so it's something to keep in mind. Topquilts available there, too.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...SIDE-THIS-POST!

Excellent point... DCF sales are rare and Hammock gear has a solid reputation for them (and an easy product to sell here if you change your mind) so that is an easy trigger pull if there is a sale.

While I have nothing against Hammock Gear top quilts- I am most familiar with Enlightened Equipment as one of the easiest universal recommendations I can make, especially for UL gear.
I like UGQ's work better than HG for quilts, but in my case I find that the 'leg shelf' of the incubator fits my larger bridges better than the zepplin.

End of the day- you wouldn't go wrong with any of them and those are nit-picky details from a true gear snob. If you catch a combo deal from HG when you look at the DCF tarp- you aren't going to cry about it.

Again- lack of knowledge/familiarity perhaps- but if you did end up making a choice you might regret- the SMR quilt might be it. It could be perfect for you, but the risk is higher than buying from a trusted vendor like EE, UGQ, or HG.

If money is immediately tight- I think CMC is right- if you catch DCF on sale go with that first.
You can always shop quilts (or the used gear sales that pop on this forum) as you go. 10% off is only $20 on an average quilt and that's not going to kill you if you miss it.
The thermarest 2019 stuff will take quite a while to clear out and you'll likely be able to find that sale price at dozens of retailers all the way until spring. So zero rush on that deal.

[Sunny Bear]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

I would caution you on taking the UL plunge lol. Next thing you know it'll sound like a good idea that you're laying in a hammock made outta 0.67argon material on zingit whoopies!
This hammock is still around!

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk

[cmc4free]

I've got a few quilts and have somewhat purposely shopped around.

Hammock Gear Econ Burrow, 0° - 800FP, 1.1oz Ion fabric in and out
UGQ Bandit, 20° - 850FP, 0.66oz Membrane 10 taffeta fabric in and out
Enlightened Equipment Enigma, 40° - 950FP, 0.50oz 7d fabric in and out
Loco Libre Gear Operator Series Ghost Pepper, 50° - 900FP, 0.56oz Membrane 7 ripstop fabric in and out

There are things I like about each one and perhaps little things I don't like as much about a few. For sure, none of these are bad and I'm happy with all of them.

The 50° LLG has the least use, as it's kind of a specialty item, so I don't have a very strong opinion on it yet. It weighs about 9oz and packs down only slightly larger than a fist. I like it for a single night's use and its temp range covers me for 4-5 months a year where I call home, but I'm still a bit skeptical of its abilities over the course of a warm, humid, multi-day trip... which is pretty much the exact scenario in which I'd be most likely to use it. The musings of our friend Bill here are actually the reason behind a lot of that skepticism. I'm considering a synthetic quilt to add to the pile, potentially taking this one's place.

The Enigma is my newest, but I already see it becoming my favorite and will probably become my most used. Of all of them in my stash, I think this is the one I can't really find fault with.

I'd love to check out quilts from Katabatic, Nunatak, Mid Atlantic Mountain Works, ... but as someone who prefers hammocks and is almost never above treeline, I realistically will probably never own one of those.

[GrizzlyAdams]

I am going to ask for some guidance from the members on HF.
My first preference is to stay with the JRB system, which consist of an older style BMBH with sleeve, the Neo Air pad, Never Winter 30 bag and nylon slings with Tri-Glide and Dutch clip. I have tried to figure out how to use my trekking poles as spreader bars, but on the older BMBH hammocks, they use a ring that the spreader bar notches into. I have seen Warbonnets adapter ends for the Monopod hiking poles, but this will not work with the BMBH older style. This would work on the new JRB Ultra Lite hammock, but there is no bug screen (which I require). Most of my hiking is in colder months, but I do hang occasionally during bug season.

Almost 10 years ago (!) I looked at trimming weight on a JRB bridge. A bit of tongue-in-cheek but wade through the irony and you'll see how to whack 11 ounces from the set up, and that's using the stock spreader bars. It's possible with some hiking poles to work them in as spreaders, details depend on the nature of the hiking poles, but the good news is that the comparative narrowness of the BMBH means less risk as the pole is largely collapsed when in use.

[fullcount]

When I posed this question asking for help, it sure came...and a bunch of good stuff. Based on the info from JB, Grizz and bunch of others, here is my game plan:

1 - Going to keep my BMBH - Just like the way it feels and not going to bother trying to find a solution with a GE Hammock. Found something that works - going to stick with it.
2 - Going to focus on my other stuff on the sleep system.
3 - Going after a 2019 Xtherm Pad Max as yes, I do spend most of my hiking time out in cold weather and I may enjoy the extra warmth (whether on the ground or in the air). The rectangular shape fits the sleeve of the BMBH and helps it hold it's shape to eliminate shoulder squeeze.
4 - Going to take the plunge and invest in a lightweight tarp - Dyneema unit with doors. I feel this is where I can get the biggest bang and it serves both objectives (hanging and ground dwelling). Keep in mind, 90% of my time is in the air, but I the want same weight savings with a ground setup.
5 - Swap out of the sleeping bag to something lighter and maybe warmer. Yes, I have done well with a 30F bag (and I will keep this for summer time hikes), but if I am going to make an investment, I do want to go lighter and warmer. This will give me options to hang in colder weather. Question is still undecided about a bag or a quilt. This is still in the air. I see the attractiveness of the quit, but I do roll over on my side and not sure how to keep the backside covered. I plan on keeping the pad inside the sleeve and not on top of the hammock floor, so straps on a quilt wrapping around the pad will not be an option. Unless there is a technique for ensuring this bag stays in place when I make my slumbered roll.
6 - I will modify the BMBH to shave a few ounces. Do the suspension mod (and I will need some advice here) to maybe drop the last 10-12 ounces.

Okay - terms everyone here takes for advantage.

What is a dog bone?

How do you make soft shackles and ensure they do not unravel on you at 4 AM?

I am thinking that I need to measure the two top parts of the triangle and let a professional make the Amsteal up with two loops on either end (is this a dog bone?) at the exact same measurement. Use one loop and larks head it to the existing hammock rings, the other loop tying into a Dutch Double loop, which runs to my new whoopie sling to the tree hugger.

So, help with the terms (and Amsteal cord) and the sleeping bag /quilt is where I am now. Thanks everyone for making me re-look at the low hanging fruit. Now if my wallet can bear the pain.

[hutzelbein]

Re top quilt vs. sleeping bag: You could compromise and get a semi-rec, hoodless sleeping bag. I have tried top quilts and different sleeping bags, and I keep coming back to this style. I feel that semi-rec sleeping bags are a hybrid style that lets me save a bit of weight but gives me the options to use it as a top quilt (zipper opened) or as a sleeping bag (zipper closed). Since there's no hood, I can turn the zipper anywhere I like, which is an advantage in the hammock. My first semi-rec sleeping bag was a Western Mountaineering Alder MF, which I'm still using every night. But since it's cut for much larger users, I got a slightly modified ZPacks sleeping bag in my size to save 316g (11oz). Most of the time I use it in top quilt mode, but I can close it up when I'm very cold.

If you decide to get a top quilt and are worried about coverage, go for an extra wide model. For example the Warbonnet Diamondback is available in a width of 60", which is ginourmous and should cover you even when sleeping on your side.

[Just Bill]

When I posed this question asking for help, it sure came...and a bunch of good stuff. Based on the info from JB, Grizz and bunch of others, here is my game plan:

1 - Going to keep my BMBH - Just like the way it feels and not going to bother trying to find a solution with a GE Hammock. Found something that works - going to stick with it.
2 - Going to focus on my other stuff on the sleep system.
3 - Going after a 2019 Xtherm Pad Max as yes, I do spend most of my hiking time out in cold weather and I may enjoy the extra warmth (whether on the ground or in the air). The rectangular shape fits the sleeve of the BMBH and helps it hold it's shape to eliminate shoulder squeeze.
4 - Going to take the plunge and invest in a lightweight tarp - Dyneema unit with doors. I feel this is where I can get the biggest bang and it serves both objectives (hanging and ground dwelling). Keep in mind, 90% of my time is in the air, but I the want same weight savings with a ground setup.
5 - Swap out of the sleeping bag to something lighter and maybe warmer. Yes, I have done well with a 30F bag (and I will keep this for summer time hikes), but if I am going to make an investment, I do want to go lighter and warmer. This will give me options to hang in colder weather. Question is still undecided about a bag or a quilt. This is still in the air. I see the attractiveness of the quit, but I do roll over on my side and not sure how to keep the backside covered. I plan on keeping the pad inside the sleeve and not on top of the hammock floor, so straps on a quilt wrapping around the pad will not be an option. Unless there is a technique for ensuring this bag stays in place when I make my slumbered roll.
6 - I will modify the BMBH to shave a few ounces. Do the suspension mod (and I will need some advice here) to maybe drop the last 10-12 ounces.

Okay - terms everyone here takes for advantage.

What is a dog bone?

How do you make soft shackles and ensure they do not unravel on you at 4 AM?

I am thinking that I need to measure the two top parts of the triangle and let a professional make the Amsteal up with two loops on either end (is this a dog bone?) at the exact same measurement. Use one loop and larks head it to the existing hammock rings, the other loop tying into a Dutch Double loop, which runs to my new whoopie sling to the tree hugger.

So, help with the terms (and Amsteal cord) and the sleeping bag /quilt is where I am now. Thanks everyone for making me re-look at the low hanging fruit. Now if my wallet can bear the pain.

The amsteel with a loop on each end is a dogbone. And if you are going to buy those- might as well pick up the soft shackles too. (along with other suspension parts like your new tree huggers/whoopies/etc.)

Since you are over 200lbs- I would just get 36" dogbones. Pretty standard size to buy premade. You could go to as low as 31" but keep in mind you lose a little in the girth hitch.
https://dutchwaregear.com/product/dog-bone/

You do mention a few too many parts, unless you're using the soft shackles on the tree huggers you don't need those and the dutch bridge hooks.
You can simply girth hitch the whoopee sling to the loop of the tree hugger and avoid a shackle there. (hugger->whoopee sling with dutch bridge hook spliced on)
Some do like a soft shackle (or dutch hook) at the tree itself if that's where you meant the soft shackle to go.
Otherwise the soft shackle would replace the dutch bridge hook and connect the whoopee to the bridge dogbones. Since you don't use a ridgeline... it's up to you.
A soft shackle can better handle the three loops I use (two dogbones plus ridgeline) in my opinion... but the double hook is pretty slick and dead simple.

As fer quilt vs mummy- that debate is personal. For me around 20* I tend to switch to a mummy if I will have a mixed trip (ground and air).
If I know I'm hanging around zero I prefer a quilt (or stacked quilts more accurately).

Quilts are easier in hammocks, and many find they get less tangled in a top quilt than a mummy during hammock use. You really don't need to worry so much about drafts as your UQ (or pad) is wrapping around you.

It takes some experience to use quilts on the ground effectively, and some prefer not to bother with that. Some will tell you all kinds of nonsense on the subject.
Simplest way to boil it down:
A quilt has a much wider effective range of use and excels where you plan to be out for a longer period of time in a wider range of temps. Basically- a quilt is cooler/more versatile.
A mummy has a narrower effective range of use and excels where you plan to use the bag within 10* or so of it's temp rating. Basically- A mummy hits the nail on the head better.

When you include the needed headgear and more generous cuts in a 'complete' system- usually a quilt and mummy end up about the same weight and pack size.
As mentioned above though- being able to separately use your hood has advantages at camp and on trail and may build into other weight savings or gear choices.
You can also more easily wash a hood than a full mummy. You footbox may still stink a bit but the hood you're wrapping around your nose can be cleaner

Only you can say what your most common trips are. I tell folks to upgrade for those.
If 80% of your trips are in milder conditions then invest your money there. Don't buy for the 20% of the time.
Eventually most of us find a way to upgrade one or three sets of gear, rather than have one 'do it all' set that is not very effective.

That said- a single 20* rated top quilt is considered one of the more versatile pieces of gear out there. With todays down and fabric this is a very wide ranging piece of gear that still clocks in at a reasonable weight and pack size. As mentioned- with the head insulation separate that can range from nothing extra in warm weather to you hooded jacket to full blown insulated hoods and any combination.
Down if fairly good at self regulation (like wool) and dumping heat where needed.

This quilt typically has an effective range of 55*-15* (with clothing supplementing it) so for many folks this is that 80% range of temps they encounter. This quilt tends to work well for most into true summer where it is simply too much to even drape on you.
If your second purchase is a 40* or so summer quilt... you can pair those two (stack them) to get to zero and get a 'two for one'.
Most of us only spend 10% of our time in true cold (zero and under) so while it is a nice party trick or notch on your belt to do so... investing in very expensive winter gear that you hardly use is a loosing battle for most.
40/20 is by far the most common- and will get you by for that odd winter weekend a few times a year. (as will some handwarmer packets and hot water bottles)
If you live in a warmer climate then 50/30 is a good combo.

You can stack a quilt over a mummy- or a generously cut mummy can fit you plus a quilt... but as I mentioned if you're really going to invest in a good zero setup then you might as well just buy once and cry once over that high end mummy and deal with it.