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  1. #1
    Member fullcount's Avatar
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    Quest for Ultra Lite Hammock System

    I am going to ask for some guidance from the members on HF.

    I have been hanging for about five years now. First using a gathered end hammock, then moved to a JRB BMBH. At first, I tried an under quilt and did not like the shoulder squeeze. Almost returned the BMBH, but tried a NeoAir pad in the sleeve and that changed everything. Thought this was the ultimate flat lay hang. The pad was plenty warm enough for me along with my Marmot Never Winter 30 degree bag. Granted, I am a warm sleeper and have taken this system down to 15 - 20 F with smart layering. Alas, after 4 years with my BMBH, I find I have to look for a lighter solution.

    I have trimmed all the unnecessary things from my trips to lighten what I can and I hike with a GoLite Jam 50 liter pack. Next is the sleep system. And when I say sleep system, I am talking tent or hammock, any pads, quilts sleeping bags and stakes, suspension, etc. My present JRB BMBH system is coming in at 9.1 lbs - ouch! Trying to trim this whole system by 2.5 to 3 lbs.

    This is where you guys come in.

    My first preference is to stay with the JRB system, which consist of an older style BMBH with sleeve, the Neo Air pad, Never Winter 30 bag and nylon slings with Tri-Glide and Dutch clip. I have tried to figure out how to use my trekking poles as spreader bars, but on the older BMBH hammocks, they use a ring that the spreader bar notches into. I have seen Warbonnets adapter ends for the Monopod hiking poles, but this will not work with the BMBH older style. This would work on the new JRB Ultra Lite hammock, but there is no bug screen (which I require). Most of my hiking is in colder months, but I do hang occasionally during bug season.

    So I am starting from scratch. I have built a long spreadsheet with various hammock styles, both bridge and GE. In my search, I am evaluating total weight of the sleep system as well as invested dollars. I am not a fan of under quilts as I prefer not to have the extra bulk in my JAM 50 pack. I figure, if I cannot get it to fit, then I don't need to carry it. Kind of a stop gap measure to ensure I don't carry the kitchen sink on my next trip out. To add some additional spice to the search, I like stuff that is multi-purpose as I am a backpacker as well as a touring cyclist. There will be times where trees will not be available (camped at a Fire Station or public park that frowns on tree hangers). As a result, I am a pad person who has decided to opt for a Big Agnes Sleep system where you can integrate the pad and bag together to open options to either Gathered End, Bridge Hammock or Ground Dweller. So a modular system is what I am inclined to look at.

    To date, I have considered the Warbonnet Ridge Runner at 9.038 lbs, the Sierra Madre Research Stratos System at 7.38 lbs or a Combo MSR Mesh House (for ground dwelling) with a SMR Ninox Fly / Hammock that comes in at 6.21 lb if I think I will just be carrying a tent system / 8.151 if I carry both the tent and hammock system when I am cycle touring - 7.151 if I ditch the tent backup and just carry the Ninox Hammock System. The Ninox is the most attractive so far, but still about a pound away from cutting 3 lbs from my base weight goal. If I go with just the tent option, then I have met my goal, but I do not want to go back to a ground system. In the midst of this, I am calculating investment to reward ratio.

    On the Dutchware section of this forum, I started reading about the Chameleon modular system and saw some potential there and asked a question about diagonal lay with a BA Bag / Pad Combo. Someone there, clued me into the Cross Hammock system from Germany. This looks interesting, but I need to evaluate hanging in rough rainy weather and the potential for staying dry with a unit that hangs so different than what most tarps are made to cover.

    So - I am ready, willing and able to take suggestions and make comments on what I am doing now.

    BMBH_wUQ.jpgBMBH_wPad.jpgSpreader_InRing.jpgBMBH_SpreaderBar.jpg

  2. #2
    New Member doman's Avatar
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    May 2017
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    Berlin
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    Cross Hammock Standard
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    The search for lightweight and modular systems inspires me too. Thats why I designed the Cross Hammock which you can use as a hiker, biker or kayaker. The advantages of this system are - in my opinion - convincingly.
    - For the Cross Hammock I need only 70% of the fabric that requires a normal hammock.
    - In the Cross Hammock you lay really flat - I think flatter than in most other hammocks on the market. This is very important to me as a sidesleeper.
    - The insulation comes from a pad and a sleeping bag which you can also use on the ground.
    - The tarp system for the Cross Hammock requires less fabric too so you minimize the weight. If you use the winter tarp with doors you can stand heavy wind and rain.
    - With the Carbon Tree I have found a hammock stand solution which is very lightweight too (less than 4 lb).
    - On the downside you have a hammock which is tricky to get in for smaller persons, and the price level is a bit higher.
    I attach two pictures that show how flat you lay and how stable this setup works in heavy wind and rain (look at the orange mid).
    190112-2080590.jpg190324-2290160.jpg

  3. #3
    Senior Member hutzelbein's Avatar
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    If you are looking for a lightweight set-up, the Ninox is the last hammock you want. It is a pretty heavy hammock, and contrary to all the marketing blabla it does not lie flatter than other gathered end hammocks. I haven't tried mine with a pad, yet, but I don't see why it should work better with a pad than other GE hammocks. In addition to that, it has so many design flaws that it is not funny. There have been a couple of threads on the Ninox, and I had the impression that I wasn't the only unhappy buyer.

    Of all normal GE hammocks I have used, the ones that worked best with a pad for me were the Warbonnet hammocks. That is not to say that the pad worked great. Just better than with the others.

    Maybe have a look at the Hammock Bliss Sky Bed Bug Free hammock. Derek wrote a review some time ago. It certainly isn't the lightest GE style hammock, but it is designed for pad use. As a matter of fact, it doesn't work without a pad. I have the version without the bug net, and if it wouldn't happen to be the wrong lay direction for me, I might actually be using it more often. It feels very different than a normal GE, but this is probably an advantage for you.

    If you end up with a GE style hammock, I would recommend the Dyneema Fiber Palace Tarp from Hammock Gear. You won't get more protection for less weight.

  4. #4
    Member fullcount's Avatar
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    Not really sure about what I saw with the Sky Bed Hammock. Still liked the way the Cross Lay looked from a gathered in view point. Still have not found a breakdown of published grams / ounces on the one with the bug screen.

    Checked out the Dyneema Fiber Palace Tarp and configured one for 12' ridge line. Plugged this into my JRB Ultra lite and my current BMBH and this drastically changed weight on both system. Since I am a big fan of the bridge hammock, this new tarp, comes with a price tag of $470..., a little higher than Cross Hammocks Dyneema Storm Hammock. The JRB Ultra Lite comes at a hefty $1,279 investment, but brings me down below 6 lbs!! Still no bug net option plugged in. Here is a picture of the comparison.

    BMBH_UltraJRB.jpg

  5. #5
    Senior Member hutzelbein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullcount View Post
    Not really sure about what I saw with the Sky Bed Hammock. Still liked the way the Cross Lay looked from a gathered in view point. Still have not found a breakdown of published grams / ounces on the one with the bug screen.
    On the website it says "WEIGHT: 840 grams / 30 oz" for the Sky Bed Bug Free. If this includes the suspension, you can cut some weight by switching to something lighter. For such a large hammock with an unusual cut (which requires a strong fabric), that's not a bad weight.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater....

    Let me throw on my SUL gram weenie arsehole hat on for a second and discuss this from that end.
    I think one common problem with approaching a light weight hammock rig is just that simple approach and perspective shift.

    If you approach this as a light weight GROUND setup you can take to the air... then it can be much easier to build.

    It is a simple fact for most of us that an UQ is more comfortable than a pad in any hammock.
    It is also a simple fact that an UQ is a horrible sleeping pad on the ground.
    So you can simply skip the UQ vs pad debate and move onto what hammock works well with a sleeping pad.

    A bridge happens to be an excellent way to work with a sleeping pad... so as you already are into this system and presumably enjoy it; lets see if we can fix it.

    Again- Let's look it at it not from a hangers perspective (comfort is worth extra weight) but from a SUL ground dwelling jerk's perspective (extra weight is discomfort). If we do that... we can meet in the middle.

    So first off the two most important components: Pad and Insulation.

    Pad- In this case you have a 27 ounce sleeping pad? That's not a Neo Air the UL jerk in me shouts. Technically I see that it is... but when we are talking about a Neo-Air for UL backpacking we are talking about the Uber light, Xlite or Xtherm series. For most folks the Xlite is too light in the air (only good to mid 40's) and the Uberlight is useless in a hammock except for summer. However the Xtherm is a winner to 30's in the air for even cold sleepers, with the option to drop to the ground and hit zero or lower.

    Now you could go with the large Xtherm in a mummy shape- That would take you down to 20 ounces.
    But if you really enjoy the rectangle shape- then sounds like the Regular Wide Xtherm Max at 23 ounces is a closer match.

    Now that may not seem like a huge savings, but keep in mind that pad you have is R2 or so, while the xtherm is R7.

    That said... if you can sleep to 30* with the current pad then we can suggest the newly updated and recently listed NeoAir Xlite pad in Regular Wide. at 15 ounces! At an R value of 4.2 vs 2.2 you've nearly doubled your insulation value and nearly cut the weight in half.

    So for the second... let's go with that and you're down from 27 ounces to 15 ounces. (-12 ounces).
    You've also saved a little pack space and you could always supplement this pad with a thin CCF for colder hanging to get by. So since UL is the goal... I'd start here.

    Insulation-
    Do we really? I mean Bruh! 42 ounces!!!
    Seriously though... that may actually be a typo depending on which version of this bag you have. It's currently listed at a lighter weight on their site but I have seen synthetic or other heavier versions. It's a decent bag for the money but not a difficult place to look at for an upgrade.

    We don't need to bog down here too much. If you like a mummy bag- good on ya. I prefer them around 20* or lower and I would stick with a quilt for 30's and up. But that is your call. That said... the 1lb 32* western mountaineering Summerlight is a UL ground dweller mummy bag staple. Something like the REI magma 30 is 20 ounces.
    The recently released Magma 30 quilt is 19 ounces.

    Why REI? 20% off or better coupons and up to a year to return them for members. Hassle free gear swap if it doesn't work out.

    That said many of our fine cottage vendors would do you even better for even less. A UGQ BANDIT with a sewn footbox will get you into the low 20 ounces and be plenty versatile. Apples to apples you can probably get a 40* bandit and it will be as warm as the 30* commercial stuff too.

    So lets budget 22 ounces for you at the moment... from 42 means we just picked up 20 ounces of savings.
    You've got hundreds of choices, options, and sales to choose from here... likely you'll pick up some volume savings.
    If you go quilt- don't forget the headgear though to stay warm enough if you ditch the mummy.



    Next up is rain/wind protection IE- shelter.
    You already identified and easy solution here- the dreaded DCF wallet puke. Simply cough up the dough and watch the ounces melt right off!

    That said... companies like enlightened equipment are offering light nylons that can rival others too. This Rival Duo appears to be an acceptable bridge tarp with better coverage than a hex and a 12 RL for 12 ounces.

    There are lots of ways to skin this cat that are fairly obvious if you either throw money at it or shop UL fabrics.
    So for the moment let's budget 15 ounce savings here based upon your post above regarding your current 31.6 ounces of shelter budget. So your goal is to get the tarp system down to 15 ounces all in.


    Budget?

    Yeah... people get too hung up on the exact gear they will get before they flush out the system. Maybe your actual financial budget is an issue. Maybe not. Money is your problem. By budget I simply mean a rough idea of what gear would fit a given system and about how much it should weigh. We don't need to have a monstrous discussion of every piece of sleeping gear or tarp on the market. We don't even have to KNOW for a fact that there is a perfect piece of gear.
    You just need to sort out if this system you're working on will actually make sense for you and meet your goals.

    So let's 'Big Three' this mess so far-
    A pad upgrade that seems reasonable for most three season use saves you 12 ounces.
    The sleeping bag jumps out as a big winner for 20 ounces of savings or so.
    A tarp is sexy... but likely expensive but comes in the middle for 15 ounces.

    Put them together and you're down 47 ounces or one good piss away from three pounds!

    WHOA Keanu! We didn't even talk about your HAMMOCK!
    How is that possible to discus UL hammocks, let alone a bridge and not even think about trekking pole conversions or throwing out your bridge for a gathered end?


    Anyway... Let's take off the SUL jerk hat for a second. (sorta)
    Just because it's a hammock doesn't mean the hammock should be the center of your focus...

    We could talk about a way to modify your BMBH to work with Carbon Poles, or upgrading to a BMBH UL.
    We could talk about how a bottom entry net (vs integrated) is nice because you can use it as a net tent on the ground.
    We could talk about how I have some 12-13 ounce bridge prototypes I may be expanding testing on soon.
    We could talk about the 10 ounce trekking poles set I developed with Ruta Locura if you really want to drop a bunch of money on new trekking poles.

    But at the moment- you have a hammock you really like.
    So why toss it?
    The first thing any UL backpacker worth their shoes would do is look at your SYSTEM.
    The first thing most UL hammock hangers do is look at the hammock.

    We didn't talk about good hard cash money but I assume you don't want to drop $2k tomorrow or you'd have simply bought a bunch of stuff and tried it rather than even bother typing a post.

    So lets upgrade stuff that makes sense and jumps out.
    Sleeping gear is always nice to upgrade... and it turns out is a great spot to start for you. $150-$300+ right there.
    Sleeping pads can easily run you $200 and it's worth buying a good one.
    Tarps can run you $150 to $500... so perhaps best for last.

    But that's $500- $1000+ worth of upgrades to your SYSTEM.
    AND it has a very high potential of improving your system without messing with your favorite part of it- your hammock.

    Or we can discuss you spending a whole season fighting with a gathered end hammock, or trying a 90*, or reinventing the wheel if you'd like. But sounds like you already spent 4 years figuring out what you like using.

    Sure I can sling you a $1000 worth of high tech bridge hammock nonsense as well.

    But it seems like a waste to drop $1000 in my pocket to save a pound or so and then cover it up with the same 6lbs of tarp, pad, and sleeping bag. If you got 2k... great. Call me I'll take it. But for now it seems you can do quite a bit with your system before we even discuss your hammock at all.

    The most important thing to remember about the quest for an ultralight hammock system;
    Is that you are on a quest for an ultralight BACKPACKING system.

    Often the best way to do that is to be an UL backpacking jerk about your stuff first.
    Then once all the weight is slashed out... the great news is there is plenty of room for any hammock you like.

  7. #7
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    First, decide whether you want to go with a GE or bridge.

    If you decide to go with GE, simply get a lightweight setup, including UQ, and add an air mat to it. There are very few people who are happy with an air mat in a GE. I tried it exactly once and it was just silly.

    If you decide on bridge, remember that while you can use an air mat, many of them are pretty tippy so the UQ is still the way to go.

    For sleeping on the ground, many quilts have pad attachment systems, such as Enlightened Equipment (and there are others), and they work very well. I used them for several years as a ground dweller before switching to hammocks.

    As an example, just last night I used this system (photo below) in temps right around freezing (ice in the water bottle, so a pinch lower) and was completely comfortable: 1) DH Darien hammock, Robic (now MTN) 1.2, including Kevlar suspension, 395.1g (13.94oz, 2) Enlightened Equipment Enigma 30°F TQ, 7D 950fp, 400.2g (14.12oz), 3) HammockGear Incubator 20°F, Argon 67 850fp, 636.6g (22.46oz) and 4) HG DCF Hex tarp, including stuff sack, guy/ridge lines (Lawson 2mm Glowire) and stakes (5x Lawson HD Shepherd Hooks) 304.5g (10.74oz).

    These are actual, no-fudge, no made-up weights and the total is 3.83 lbs for the entire sleep/shelter setup. And it would fit with tons of room to spare in a 50-liter pack. A folded Neoair would (and has!) completely disappeared in there.

    If you are interested in the total UL approach, there are a few of us on HF who embrace this philosophy.

    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  8. #8
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    lol I was typing my missive as JB was posting his!

    So I guess I'm that UL jerk. OK, I admit I was cringing at the mention of the BA modular system.

    To be fair, however, I only "weigh in" when the topic is UL.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  9. #9
    Member RollTide22's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
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    If you want the lightest...use Dutch V linelocs and 1mm cordage for the tieouts for the tarp. I have tested these two items for over 2,000 miles...I can definitively say that those two items are impeccable. Good luck
    AT-2017 PCT-2018 CDT-2019-2020
    JMT-2018 FT-2018-2020 CT-2019-2020

  10. #10
    Member fullcount's Avatar
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    Thanks RollTide22, Cmoulder and JustBill - This was what I was hoping for. Someone that has been down this road.

    Yes, I love my JRB BMBH and the way it feels with the pad inside the sleeve. So, I will look at the Xtherm and explore a different top quilt. The reason I was looking at the Big Agnes pad / bag combo was due to the potential of going back to a GE hammock. Did not want to the two to depart in the middle of the night.

    Let me review the suggestions and weigh in this evening.

    On the bag - that was no typo. Actually 43.4 ounces with the compression sack (which I will ditch to save another 3 ounces). But just the way I have been packing for years and know I need to change to get to the UL level I want to achieve. Makes sense what everyone is saying, if I have found something comfortable with the BMBH, then modify the other items around the sleep system. The only other mod I could do to shave a few ounces is go to a whoopie sling set up verses the tri-glide and web strapping. The rings on the BMBH are starting to show some rust. Anyone ever change out the spreader bar attachments to something that could adapt to a trekking pole mode?

    MarmotNeverWinter30.jpgNeo_26.2oz.jpg

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