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  1. #11
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by framjam View Post

    When I gave up at midnight, I had an actual puddle under my butt. Although I would never take cotton into the woods, I hadn't bothered swapping out my city-wear cotton briefs, and they were soaked through. While I was warm, I hadn't even noticed, but when I went inside, a change of clothes was required before I crawled into bed..
    BTW, the one time I was soaked, when I failed to use the space blanket in the 40sF, I also did not even notice untill I went to get up the next morning! So that makes 2 of us! Also, that time it was definitely condensation, not sweating. I failed to use the space blanket, so I got the predictable results.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-05-2019 at 13:06.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post

    I think you must have been over heating and sweating. Maybe not surprising if you had a sleeping bag under the OCF pad at a mere 0C/32F. kwpapke used such a combo at minus 27F and was plenty warm. And dry.

    ...

    Though this worked out bad, it is in a funny way a back handed endorsement to the HH system. A pool of water under your butt, and still warm at freezing! WOW! There has been many a cold butt reported around here over the years at 10 or 20F above a down quilts rating, especially with new users. With no apparent dampness to blame with these breathable systems. In most systems, with that much moisture, you should have been freezing your butt off.

    Good luck on working it out, and keep us posted! TIP: want to be really dry and never worry again about moisture in your quilts or OCF pads or on top of your CCFor inflatable pads again? Research Stephenson's Warmlight VB clothing!

    Yeah, I wondered about sweating, but I was paying attention, and it didn't seem like I was overheating, anywhere. Certainly, the top part of me wasn't sweating, but I guess my back must have been. I agree that the condensation argument doesn't have much weight to it: there was no cold surface, so there shouldn't have been condensation.

    I had missed how cold you've taken the base system, and I wasn't sure I could handle it down to freezing, by itself. I guess I'll try that, next. It didn't even get down to freezing, that night, despite the forecast. I forgot to check my outdoor thermometer, when I came in, but I checked the min reading in the morning, and it said 3 °C (37 °F), and it had been 4 °C when I went out, so I expect it was still 4 °C when I bailed. The thermometer I had inside my hammock ridgeline was reading 10 °C (50 °F). I can see how a 20 °F top quilt might be too much in that environment! Guess I'll take a fleece blanket out with me, and save the top quilt for the middle of the night.

    I was really hoping to find some magical system that would let me sleep all night without adjustment, but I guess that's a pipe dream: since I throw my covers around in the climate-controlled bedroom, it's probably necessary to adjust in the hammock as the outdoor air cools.

    The forecast says we'll have some more cool weather in a couple of days, so maybe I'll have a chance to check it out, later in the week.

    Yes, I'm interested in experimenting with VB clothing (or at least socks). Thought I might try grocery bags, first!

  3. #13
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by framjam View Post
    Yeah, I wondered about sweating, but I was paying attention, and it didn't seem like I was overheating, anywhere. Certainly, the top part of me wasn't sweating, but I guess my back must have been. I agree that the condensation argument doesn't have much weight to it: there was no cold surface, so there shouldn't have been condensation.

    I had missed how cold you've taken the base system, and I wasn't sure I could handle it down to freezing, by itself. I guess I'll try that, next. It didn't even get down to freezing, that night, despite the forecast. I forgot to check my outdoor thermometer, when I came in, but I checked the min reading in the morning, and it said 3 °C (37 °F), and it had been 4 °C when I went out, so I expect it was still 4 °C when I bailed. The thermometer I had inside my hammock ridgeline was reading 10 °C (50 °F). I can see how a 20 °F top quilt might be too much in that environment! Guess I'll take a fleece blanket out with me, and save the top quilt for the middle of the night.

    I was really hoping to find some magical system that would let me sleep all night without adjustment, but I guess that's a pipe dream: since I throw my covers around in the climate-controlled bedroom, it's probably necessary to adjust in the hammock as the outdoor air cools.

    The forecast says we'll have some more cool weather in a couple of days, so maybe I'll have a chance to check it out, later in the week.

    Yes, I'm interested in experimenting with VB clothing (or at least socks). Thought I might try grocery bags, first!
    I just want to make sure I have been clear. About how low I have taken the base system: during my early days in a hammock, the HHSS is all I had. If memory serves, right about freezing was about my limit for the base system. At freezing, I'm thinking my initial impression sleeping out all night was: not, cold, and not warm, just neutral. But no sensation of actual warmth on my back. Then again, I don't normally expect such a sensation, even when sleeping in my bed. I just expect to not be cold. I can not remember if I have ever tried to push my unaided HHSS down into the 20sF, but I don't think I have. A couple of other folks have gone lower than me. Also, during those days, I was always struggling with either sleeping bags in the hammock, or trying to make bags used as TQs work adequately for me without drafts(learning curve). So often, I was never sure if I was cold because of TQ issues or the HHSS. Sometimes I just seemed cold all over.

    OTOH, I quickly learned that by simply adding some clothing that I didn't really need to sleep in down into the under cover, I could now easily keep my back and butt warm enough well below freezing. I did that for years, and even without a tarp and in the wind, I stayed warm and dry into the teens with single digit wind chills. I have always been dry except the one time in 2007 I did not follow directions and did not use the space blanket. I hope you can work the moisture issue out, I hate to see folks having that problem when some of us stay so dry. But, I suppose it is possible that it is just the difference in people. Maybe.

    Question: do you have the system they have sold for over a decade that they call the HHSS? O do you have their brand new system which they are calling "Four Season Hammock"? These systems are similar, but also with some significant differences that might relate to condensation.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Question: do you have the system they have sold for over a decade that they call the HHSS? O do you have their brand new system which they are calling "Four Season Hammock"? These systems are similar, but also with some significant differences that might relate to condensation.
    I have the SuperShelter, not the new thingy.

    I'll experiment with temps and stuffing things under (and using a wicking layer inside the hammock!). Dunno if I'll get to it in the next few nights, but we're in the variable weather part of our year, so I should be able to get a decent set of data points---if I can just spend the whole night!

  5. #15
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    A missed opportunity. Wish I'd slept out there, last night.

    (It still only went down to 1 °C)

    snow_on_hammock.jpg

  6. #16
    Senior Member cneill13's Avatar
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    I would just ditch the Supershelter. I couldn't imagine using a space blanket as part of my winter set up. Of course you are going to get wet. I don't see any other alternative.

  7. #17
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cneill13 View Post
    I would just ditch the Supershelter. I couldn't imagine using a space blanket as part of my winter set up. Of course you are going to get wet. I don't see any other alternative.
    There are of course plenty of folks who feel exactly the same way. But I don’t know how many of those folks have actually tried the system enough to give it a fair shake. I myself have been using one on and off since 2006 and have never gotten the least bit damp. With the exception of one time where I did not follow directions.

    i’d say there are at least a half dozen people here at Hammock forums – maybe more- who have used the system with just as much success as I have. They have been both warm – at temperatures more than expected for a 20 ounce full length system that includes an under quilt protector equivalent- and pretty much dry. It’s the same thing as when using any type of vapor barrier system. Whether sleeping bag liners or VB clothing, once again there are a few of us here who use those with great success. And we stay for the most part plenty dry. And always our insulation stays drier than anyone’s. But dry or wet, we stay warm, sometimes amazingly warm.

    But, it does require thoroughly understanding the concept of how to use these correctly. If you don’t, you will probably end up both cold and wet. In which case it’s best just to stay away from this sort of system. Not that staying away from it will guarantee that you stay warm and dry. It’s not like people have not ended up cold and even wet when not using VB systems. But, most people probably have a better grasp of how to use a breathable system and maybe have a better chance of using it correctly.

  8. #18
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    Update:
    A rectangle of chamois under my butt (kinda like a piddle pad for a toilet-training toddler!) was all it took. Whenever I checked, through the night, it was a little damp, but I was dry and warm.

    Not sure what the big deal is about just that area. Even in the time it took me to get settled (TQ straightened, feet in, phone and keys into ridgeline bag) before I got the pad under me, I could feel the damp collecting. But, whatever: a well-placed rag solves it all night.

    Took the base system down to 2 °C. Below that, I think it might work, but maybe the OCF needed adjusting. One of my shoulders was cold, and I was too lazy to fix it when the back door was only 3 m away.

    Now that I have faith in the base system, I'll stuff the sleeping bag back in and see how much lower it can go.

  9. #19
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by framjam View Post
    Update:
    A rectangle of chamois under my butt (kinda like a piddle pad for a toilet-training toddler!) was all it took. Whenever I checked, through the night, it was a little damp, but I was dry and warm.

    Not sure what the big deal is about just that area. Even in the time it took me to get settled (TQ straightened, feet in, phone and keys into ridgeline bag) before I got the pad under me, I could feel the damp collecting. But, whatever: a well-placed rag solves it all night.

    Took the base system down to 2 °C. Below that, I think it might work, but maybe the OCF needed adjusting. One of my shoulders was cold, and I was too lazy to fix it when the back door was only 3 m away.

    Now that I have faith in the base system, I'll stuff the sleeping bag back in and see how much lower it can go.
    Thanks for the update, Framjam! Glad to hear you found a simple, light and easy solution. But I remain perplexed over why some of us have these issues that need a solution, while some of us have not even a hint of these problems(like me and maybe a 1/2 dozen or more others here). Is it simply some sort of physiological differences in folks, or some sort of undetected user error?

    And if it is the former(i.e. differences in people), then that is also strange because it's not like the laws of physics don't apply to us in the no condensation group. I know I get plenty of condensation as well under the right circumstances, plus I am a big sweat producer if too warm and/or too humid. But I remain bone dry over 13 years of on and off HHSS testing, assuming I followed directions. And if that is not enough, I have used the same principle in other systems, such as the Speer Pea Pod I used for years. More than once I added that very same HHSS space blanket under my hammock, on top of the inner shell and the 900 FP down, then closed the pod around the entire hammock and space blanket. I did this to extend the rating below 20F, or other times when the pod needed no help for bottom warmth( between 20 and 40F) just to keep the down drier. I also, per Ed Speer's suggestions, sometimes put my closed cell foam sit/leg pad( a VB ) under the hammock down in the pod. Never an issue with moisture. On one of my trips using a Pea Pod to the Saw Tooth Mountains of ID, I loaned my HHSS to my friends son. He also had no moisture issues and stayed warm in the 30s on this multi day trip. All as predicted re: condensation: there should be zero condensation on a warm surface, and those space blankets and CCF pads were kept warm by being on top of the bulk of our insulation. Per the theory, if there was going to be moisture, it should be sweat from over heating, not condensation. We never had either.

    So, I am left scratching my head, wondering "what the heck?". I still come down on the side of variations in sweat production(not condensation) among individuals. You know how you can have a group of of men and women in a barely warm room, and some folks ar almost cold and some are a bit on the too warm side and some of those are actually sweating profusely? You don't happen to be an excessive swat producer, do you, by any chance?

    However, some good news has come out of your testing: Despite the extra moisture, you have once again been warm to right about freezing in a full length, wind proof system that only weighs about 17 oz(for the Expedition). And who knows, you might even be able to go lower before having to add anything. A system that is much more resistant to blowing rain/snow/wind than any down UQ is. (unless of course you ad the extra weight, bulk and cost of an UQP, or at least a really large tarp.) I doubt any 17 oz full length UQ is going to keep you any warmer. So you are confirming my experience, that this system works and is competitive in warmth to weight, while being superior in wind resistance(which is included in the weight/cost/bulk).

    Once you start getting a cold butt/back, consider simply adding whatever winter parka or pants or whatever you will not be sleeping in, down below the OCF pad. (lighter stuff can go on top of the pad if you prefer). Especially if synthetic(less likely to compress too much). And just remember to consider the weight of that bag, just make sure it does not cause the UC to sag enough to over come the loft of the bag so that it can't reach your back. Make sure the HHSS suspension and UC elastics are able to keep that bag solidly against you pad, which is also in contact with your back. Avoid gaps between the bag and pad and/or between the pad and your back, at all cost. If that happens after adding a bag, it will probably only make you colder. OTOH, kwpapke , years ago on a MN winter backpack with Shug, stayed plenty warm and dry by having a very thin and flexible, Exped Multimat pad in his undercover, with a summer bag on top of that, all under the HH OCF pad and space blanket. He stayed warm and dry(also used VB clothing) at a spectacular minus 27F. So adding a light bag to your HHSS, you should be able to keep warm at any temp you are likely to try and sleep in. Keep us informed of your progress!
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...pershelter-27F
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-11-2019 at 13:50.

  10. #20
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    There's no way this is a condensation problem. The first evening that I used the rag under me, like I said, it took me a few minutes before I put it in place. I was already feeling the damp, but only on my underside.

    Yes, I run hot, and yes, I'm a sweat-er. I don't know why (and I've never noticed before that) my lower back and posterior are particularly to blame.

    I knew, from the physics of the thing, that this should work, and if individual physiology means a bit of tweaking, well, that's ok.

    What's funny to me is how many people swoop in to say "That won't work." But there's only you left singing the praises of this system. Whatever.

    Haven't decided whether I'm sleeping out in the storm, this evening. I'm not yet getting really good sleep in the hammock, so I may only do one or two more cold-night experiments before moving the whole shebang indoors and just practising hanging.

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