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  1. #21
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    Water with down, DownTEK, and UP insulation

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    I have been asking some of these questions at the Cedar Ridge youtube site. Here is one quick answer I have gotten from these nice folks so far:


    So, there might still be an advantage to CS, if it handles the moisture just as well as UP, but would not be 10 oz heavier for the same temp rating. Unless, of course, it turns out that the 10 oz heavier quilt- about the same thickness as the down quilt, is also a warmer quilt.

    A 10 oz heavier CS Apex quilt would probably also be about the same thickness as an 850 FP quilt, but it would definitely be warmer than the down.

    I don’t know that the weight between UP and Apex really makes a difference here. An AHE New River 3-season regular-length weights ~30oz at a claimed 25*F (though I wouldn’t take it that low personally). The Cedar Ridge UP UQ should weigh in close to the same, probably have better compressibility based on demos from Dutch, and be comfort rated to 20*F.

    And for a synthetic TQ I’d take UP Over Apex any day of the week just for the body conforming factor.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  2. #22
    Senior Member BigCRO's Avatar
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    We are working to answer all these questions and I’ll do my best to let you know where we are at right now. Though we don’t have all the answers, we, as far as I know, have been the only company willing to put UP through its paces.

    Our initial season of testing last year yielded very good results, good enough that we felt comfortable releasing UP Quilts to the masses after a ton requests for them. After a couple trips to Pennsylvania with prototypes, and some field testing behind the quilts we have version 1 which is what you see now. We will continue to test and push UP to the limits and hone the quilt to its best version.

    Testing:
    In the video the testing seems extreme. But it is the same test used to test the DWR coating on treated down.

    https://youtu.be/IS5AdYEwqw8

    We chose to follow that testing model because it seemed fair. We realized that nobody is going to put their quilts in a lake and shake for 30 seconds but we do like prepare for worst case scenarios.

    Scenario:
    Canoeing down a river in frigid temperatures when you hit an eddy wrong. You and you’re gear take a plunged. You make it safely to the shore and begin searching for you gear. A ways down stream you find your gear with dry bags shredded and all your clothes and sleeping system are soaked. With nighttime approaching and temperatures dropping which would you rather have? A soaked down quilt or a soaked synthetic quilt? I’m not saying it’s going to happen but it’s a very plausible scenario.

    Warmth & Durability:
    We have a 30° UQ & TQ we at CRO tested last year and only got to 26° at the lowest. We also sent other 40°, 20° and 0° quilts to the Northeast and Pacific Northwest last year for testing. The feedback was the same only got the quilts to about 5° below their rating. All initial testing was very positive with no issues reported. All these quilts were constructed with comparable loft to our down quilts. We wanted to push the quilts harder but we ran out of cold weather. We will push these quilts to the limit this year. During the last year we packed, unpacked, left compressed, left uncompressed, washed, and abused the UP insulation and it’s still going strong. We have noticed no loss in loft or warmth as of yet.

    Weight:
    Part of the weight difference between the 2 quilts in the video is the fabric. The Down quilt is made with Argon .90 outer and Argon .67 inner while the UP Quilt is made from ION 1.1 inner and outer. The actual difference in fill weight between these quilts is about 7 ounces on average.

    At 31 ounces we beat a comparable Climashield quilt (EE Enigma 32.14 ounces, $245) by a little over 1 ounce and in price by almost $100.
    I don’t think we will come down much on the fill amounts unless we really see a trend of over ratings this winter.

    This coming week we will test compressibility compared to Down and Climashield.

    ~BigCRO


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  3. #23
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    BigCro, Great info!

  4. #24
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    Regarding the shake tests:
    I wouldn't call them useless, but unrealistic is accurate. As mentioned- to reach that level of violent saturation you'd likely trash your sleeping gear to do so. There was one of the new 'internet cottage importer' vendors who dunked the bag into a running stream in order to wet out the bag, which is really the level you'd need to go to. Even falling in a running stream or flipping a boat (done both) it is hard to fully wet out a bag if it is in a stuff sack. Just think of a sponge... if you squeeze a sponge and dunk it... it won't absorb much water. It's only when it is wide open that it can trap water inside. In addition, most use a Sil-nylon stuff sack, and most shell material is coated in DWR.

    Anyone who has tried to wash sleeping gear in the bathtub (what we were taught to do in the past) knows how difficult it actually is to do as well.

    That said, what Big Cro did at the finish is mildly useful. Observing recovery after wetting is worth looking at.

    Moving beyond that:
    To do a true comparison what you have to do is take the same model of quilt, with the same shell, and only change one variable. In this case insulation.
    Here is an example I have shared before comparing Primaloft Gold and Apex

    So I'd encourage that more direct comparison as both a sales aid and educational tool for Big Cro.

    A more useful test:
    I've thought about this for a while and I think what would be good to test would be a humidity test. Perhaps doing a single baffle (DWR 10d) filled with insulation that could be loft tested over time while attached to a simple humidifier. Some of the older myths said we lose 16-24 ounces of water vapor per night. That has been debunked a bit by recognizing that most of that liquid is in the form of moisture in your breath. Though that's why tucking your head under your quilt or in your mummy is a huge problem. That said... roughly 4-6 ounces of moisture can migrate through your skin and into your sleeping gear EACH night. That's still quite a bit in a 20* bag with around 16 ounces of fill. Granted- this is moisture vapor and it is migrating through your bag and ideally right through the shell.

    Humidity creep:
    This moisture migrating through your gear, or from the ambient air, is really the problem. Falling in a puddle, getting rained on, drowning in a stream etc... not ultra realistic. Can it happen, sure. After you do it once or twice though it tends to be something you learn to avoid.
    Moisture creep though is something you really can't do much about. That's why you hear about folks who 'sun' their down at lunch and actively manage their down gear through the day. Even in winter you can do this in strong sun at altitude, but the issue becomes when that is not a possibility. After a few days your gear doesn't 'wet out' per say, but it gets listless. It doesn't reach full loft, you get cold spots, and your sleeping gear doesn't function as intended. When you're out for a week at 20*... you do notice when your bag works great on day 2, but you shiver on day 5. Same bag, same temp, same you... but it is adversely affected by humidity creep.

    The good news- how many of you are out for more than a week?
    If you're not- don't even bother considering or looking up what a VBL is.
    Even long distance hikers are rarely out much more than a week at a time before hitting the next town stop. And again- there are some tricks to manage the humidity along the way.

    Synthetic in general:
    Those who have followed my stuff won't be surprised to hear that I'm not a fan of APEX.
    In general there are two types of synthetic; Continuous Filament (APEX) and short staple (Primaloft Gold and I assume UP).

    Because of this simple difference in structure; APEX will not be as compressible, nor will it drape well. Long term durability is debatable, though I know many here have good luck with Apex holding up... it doesn't do as well in the long distance backpacking community where it is handled a bit rougher and likely overcompressed in the typical pack. One of the worst things you can do to a continuous filament insulation is over compress it. So when I see folks putting their APEX gear into a compression bag... well I suppose at this point it's your problem and not mine.

    The big advantage to Apex is that it is easy to work with, and thus more affordable. It is supposed to be quilted 24" on center but nobody actually does that. That may be a reason it's performance declines as well but that isn't really tested well in our end of things. in commercial synthetics this quilting rule is followed.

    Short staple fills are more expensive and require quilting. Primaloft Gold is still considered the best, though I don't know much about Plumafill (Patagonia) as it's still proprietary. This product is most commonly sold as a roll good with a scrim. That said; it can be purchased in a loose/fillable form (like UP). The biggest advantages are better compression, higher CLO rating (like higher fill power), and much better drape.

    Because of the quilting and characteristics this product is most often seen in apparel. Primaloft Gold is still one of the best, if not the best, synthetic insulation.

    I don't know what UP is. As in who made it or any of it's characteristics. It sounds like a version of the loose PLG to me.

    Bottom line:
    The advantage of synthetic in a summer quilt is that you don't need baffles. So from an ultralight perspective you can actually build a lighter synthetic in temps around 45* and up. You can build a synthetic that outperforms down, especially for a high humidity summer environment. Primaloft Gold is actually rated to 90% efficient WHEN WET. I have slept in pouring rain with nothing but a Membrane 10 shell and PLG insulation. I've wet tested in the upper 40's with a wet PLG set and wake up dry. It's neat stuff.

    So I would say that is a disadvantage to loose fill synthetics in summer applications.

    But past 45* or so... I go back to down. It is simply more efficient. The down market has come way down... so it's cost effective as well for the most part. A western mountaineering bag is still $600... but here in hammockland you can get a full down set for that.

    If I were doing a long duration backcountry trip in deep winter- I would strongly consider synthetic with a VBL system. But in real life- most of us will rarely do a winter trip much longer than a few nights. And in real life unless you go up towards the border; you probably won't get sustained temps below zero.

    If I was allergic to down (yes it is a thing) then I guess that settles that.
    This is a spot where something like UP really shines. A vendor can take a standard shell in their inventory and cater to that customer who does have a down allergy. There are those who also have ethical objections... not worth discussing the merits of that point other than to point out that this product is a good option for those folks too. For a vendor; being able to crank out a piece of gear that meets their needs with existing equipment and designs is a big plus.

    If I lived in a super high humidity environment- I'd probably have a summer bag (synthetic) anyway most of the time- as hot and humid go together like biscuits and gravy. But if temps did get closer to freezing I'd TRY down first. A 20* down piece is still lighter, warmer, and a better pack size than a comparable synthetic. Even if it lost 10* through humidity creep during a week trip it would still work out well. That's also worst case... on my more average weekend of 1-3 nights out... it would perform great. I would only switch to synthetic if down ACTUALLY failed on me in real life in the area I frequently visited. This is mainly a packing your fears problem to be blunt. I don't personally live in a swamp in Alabama; so yes someplace I concede there is likely a place that this is a real life issue. But I would verify that before I assumed I needed synthetic in that scenario.

    I'm always happy to see new stuff out there. I have a bag of UP... still sitting unopened next to the pile of bridge prototypes that come first. I think the best application for our vendors here is to meet the needs of those looking for an alternative to down. To sum it up:

    45* and up summer bags- Primaloft Gold (ideal), Then Apex. I'd buy either before I bought an UP based bag, simply because of the baffles needed. I could be wrong and would consider testing a comparison... but until I saw more specs on UP I doubt it bumps off Primaloft Gold for this application.

    40*-0*: Use down unless you can't. Of the synthetics- I'd strongly consider an UP filled bag over Apex.
    As I believe I'm still about the only one on the planet making a PLG bag... I don't sell 25* bags anymore.

    If you are allergic or morally opposed to down: Try UP.

    If you're a polar explorer you are not reading this thread and really shouldn't be taking anyone's advice (you should be writing posts like this) so to be blunt... that magical scenario where synthetic winter gear is ideal is so rare as to not really even apply and is a theoretical discussion for all of us here.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ShroominDave's Avatar
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    Just a question for those concerned with the weight difference (especially on week long or longer trips). Have you ever weighed your down quilt before and immediately after the trip to see how much weight in water vapor or condensation accumulates in the down? Very curious and watching this thread.
    Dave
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  6. #26
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShroominDave View Post
    Just a question for those concerned with the weight difference (especially on week long or longer trips). Have you ever weighed your down quilt before and immediately after the trip to see how much weight in water vapor or condensation accumulates in the down? Very curious and watching this thread.
    I never weighed them, but the ease in which they stuff after just a couple nights is depressing. Feels like they shrink to half the original size.

  7. #27
    sideshowraheem's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread because I am mightily interested in UP insulation. Anxious to hear the test results for all the quilts BigCro sent out. UP could be a real boon to people with down allergies. Myself I'd like something as a 3 season alternative when I know I'll be facing real humid and wet conditions.

  8. #28
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    I made a TQ using UP and aside from the added weight, I found it’s just like down. I haven’t really given it any wet weather testing yet to know how it performs with moisture but I really like it so far. And what’s great is now Loco Libre offers quilts in UP as well
    Last edited by Heavyhiker; 02-08-2021 at 21:03. Reason: Have to haven’t

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