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  1. #11
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    BillyBob, I didn't want to "quote" your post - but I know you have a good memory, so I reckon you'll recall a story from Chesapeake, where he accidentally left his treated down gear out at home, exposed to a rainstorm. If I'm remembering correctly, he was really pleased with how easy it was to dry it out. Maybe I can find that post...

    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...it-to-the-test!
    I do remember that. It would seem that treated down is all any one would ever need, if they felt they needed something more than regular down due to moisture concerns. Bur wasn't it also Chesapeake that reported some condensation issues in cold weather? Maybe that was before the dry down?

  2. #12
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    That might be inevitable given his location on the bay. I've read a lot of his posts regarding his use of synthetic insulation, probably for that reason.

  3. #13
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    That might be inevitable given his location on the bay. I've read a lot of his posts regarding his use of synthetic insulation, probably for that reason.
    OOPS! I was thinking of OneClick as having had some issues with condensation and down. Not Chesapeake. I think.

    TrailSlug
    I've slept in a complete fog out and while my quilts did get damp they still worked just fine. On longer hikes I've had to take "sun" breaks to dry out the quilts which works fine and the quilts dry out faster than expected. The way I view it, if through hikers on the Appalachian trail which is considered a very wet trail can use down then it should work in 99% of all other areas just fine.
    You have a very good point. And we do have folks that have never had an issue, and as you said people even hike the wet AT with out issue. (Although, don't people often, or sometimes, take zero days in towns and dry gear in laundries? ) So, most of the time, with experienced users, and some occasional sunshine, even on longer trips, it is not going to be as issue.

    But, just because some hike the AT with no reported problems, and just because both you and I have gotten away with using down in extreme moisture, does not mean that down does not live up to it's well established reputation of becoming a serious problem when moisture is hard to avoid, especially from condensation.

    Some really unpleasant personal experiences are the reason why UL hiker Ray Jardine abandoned down years ago and only trusts Climashield for remote trips and for his quilts. There is a reason why when I took my (30 days in the wilderness)mountaineering course from National Outdoor Leadership School(NOLS) back in the mid 80s, they would not allow me to take my wonderful minus 5F North Face down bag, synthetic was required. (now it is true that both DWR shells and treated down have improved since then, but the untreated down itself has not changed at all).

    There is a reason why the Backpacking Light(BPL) folks, who are crazy about down quilts and garments and UL in general, designed a line of UL Polarguard quilts and clothes ( Cocoon, great stuff! ) for their trip across Alaska starting in June maybe 10 years ago. They did this because they figured on a lack of sunshine between rains, the trip was remote with no easy rescue, and more than one of those guys previously had the foot boxes of their down bags collapse on longer, grey sky trips, without ever getting the shell of their bags wet. So, there is plenty of long history of experienced, skilled people having problems with damp or wet down, particularly on longer trips.

    There is also experience from the folk here. I have already told of my friends experience 2 different times(as I tink about it, actually 3), as well as my own very noticeable loss of loft on a week long trip. That was a Marmot minus 5 bag, and we only had one night that got down to +15F, so I was fine, warm enough anyway. My buddy did not have as much reserve and froze after his foot box and quilt lost a lot of loft, and froze one night, but fortunately for both of us it was the last night. But if we had a few more days or another week? He was already in trouble, and I think I would have joined him unless we got a bunch of sunshine and took the time to stop and dry out.

    There have also been other reports here at HF over the years. Here are 2 recent. The subject of this thread was vapor barrier use, not so much wet down. Still, this came out from some very experience back woods hammock hangers, and these were not even on long trips with no sunshine:
    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    My last trip was a cold and damp one. The first two nights weren't as bad, but the last night hit that dewpoint with the coldest low right at 32°. I noticed all around the footbox, outside of the TQ, was wet. If I were staying another night, and the weather was still damp, I would have been a bit worried. Packing up a wet quilt and then later unpacking it for another night while still damp sucks.
    .................................................. .................................................. ..
    Last winter I had a very troubling experience, luckily on my last morning. The quilt was VERY wet with ice forming inside from what I could tell. Everything outside was frosted over. Basically EVERYTHING under the tarp that wasn't packed away. Lowest temp was -16°F.

    .................................................. .......
    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    .................................................. .................................................. ............................................. For multiple days in extreme cold where condensation will definitely build up day-by-day, VB clothing is the only way to go. I've personally experienced a -25°F-rated sleeping bag become virtually useless after about 4-5 nights without VB at well-below-zero temps.
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...27#post1993427
    Also, I have never forgotten the time I woke up to the foot of my Polarguard bag and my under insulation in the foot area soaked with condensation, after the FIRST NIGHT of a week long hike. And I had to pack up and go. There was no sunshine the entire week, just mist and fog and rain. But, no problem, not only was I warm in the wet insulation(only discovered it after I got up), by the time I unpacked and hit the hammock that 2nd night my insulation felt bone dry, and stayed that way for the entire week. But on this same trip, by the end, my buddy was worried about significant loss of loft with his down quilts. It happens.

    So, in my personal opinion( could be wrong), no matter how often some of us- including myself- are impressed with how little our down gear suffers in damp conditions, and how warm it keeps us when it is really wet, there simply is no question that down can, under some circumstances, leave you flat, even when you never get a drop of rain/snow/fog on your exterior DWR shell. And of course, sometimes things go wrong and we do end up with exterior moisture getting to our shells, in addition to any condensation. So all depending on the weather forecast and length of the trip and ability to bail, the synthetics definitely still have a place for me. In addition to lower price. Although, maybe dry down is more than adequate even for the worst conditions? Though in the OP test, the UP still showed significant advantage, especially after squeezing out, still the dry down did pretty good.

    But, to each his own, and whatever works!

  4. #14
    Senior Member TrailSlug's Avatar
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    BB58,
    Good point if your willing to "tote" synthetic. I personally use down because I backpack and would never consider any synthetic insulation but there are many who could care less about weight and if that's the case then synthetic is a good affordable alternative.

  5. #15
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    UP looks promising as a synthetic alternative. How much loss of loft after repeated compression is the question; we know that down remains the leader in this category at present.

    Is UP going to significantly reduce costs to manufacturers? Since it is not a 'bat' or sheet and handles similar to down, it appears that quilts will still require a baffle design which is more expensive to make, right? (Not a rhetorical question, I really don't know... maybe it isn't.)

    I have been very impressed with DownTek thus far with not-too-cold temps. The open question is how long and thru how many wash cycles this will last... i.e. will it break down similar to DWR treatments on some rain jackets? This is the main reason I am highly reluctant to wash down quilts, and I've not seen a definitive answer to either of these concerns.

    For extreme cold, ice will build up in any type of insulation because moisture hits the dew point and freezes, 'locking' it into the quilt/bag.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  6. #16
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    UP looks promising as a synthetic alternative. How much loss of loft after repeated compression is the question; we know that down remains the leader in this category at present.

    Is UP going to significantly reduce costs to manufacturers? Since it is not a 'bat' or sheet and handles similar to down, it appears that quilts will still require a baffle design which is more expensive to make, right? (Not a rhetorical question, I really don't know... maybe it isn't.)

    I have been very impressed with DownTek thus far with not-too-cold temps. The open question is how long and thru how many wash cycles this will last... i.e. will it break down similar to DWR treatments on some rain jackets? This is the main reason I am highly reluctant to wash down quilts, and I've not seen a definitive answer to either of these concerns.

    For extreme cold, ice will build up in any type of insulation because moisture hits the dew point and freezes, 'locking' it into the quilt/bag.
    And ice is not a very good insulator, me thinks!

    Yes, more questions we don't yet know the answer to.
    1:I would also like to see the CLO ratings to see how it compares to for a given weight per sq. yd. to Climashield and Primaloft. I think the later 2 are similar, but I also think the Primaloft requires baffles like down, reducing the warmth to weight ratio. However, these 2 are not really all that much heavier than down at a given warmth. The users of the AHE Jardidge and Ridgecreek already know this, what with their conservative 25F ratings at about 20 oz of a tad lower. (several have taken them lower). You can't beat that very much with down, though the weight dif is greater with the colder rated quilts.

    2:The bigger concern for years has been volume. While even that difference is not huge, it is enough to be a problem for those with the really small packs, especially in winter. Is the volume still greater with UP? Probably, and it requires baffles.

    3: The durability you mentioned. Unknown. My Climashield XP and Combat that I have in my original WB Yeti(over 10 years) has held up nicely, the loft seems/measures about the same. But it has seen little stuffing and no washing. (no apparent need for washing so far)
    4: As I mentioned earlier: warmth to thickness/loft? Better than down? One of the things that makes folks assume a vast superiority for down relative to a given weight is loft. An 850 FP down quilt is always going to be a good bit- maybe 2 or more times- thicker than a synthetic quilt of the same weight. But that does not mean it will be any warmer. My calculated thickness for that AHE Jarbidge 20 oz quilt is 1.44". (I can not come close to measuring that accurately, but I think I have measured in the ball park) Even a 40* down quilt has more loft than that, ad I would estimate a 25F down UQ to need 2.25" of loft. So thicker is not always warmer if the insulation material is not the same. The quilts shown in the OP video from Cedar Ridge look to me to be the same loft. The UP one is 10 oz heavier. Does that mean it is a much warmer quilt? Unknown. If it is not also a warmer quilt, that extra 10 ounces of weight is pretty significant.

    But it sure can handle the water! There might be certain circumstances where that is worth the weight. But, not unless it is somehow superior to CS, which is no where near that much heavier than down. Well, maybe it is heavier than down, we don't know if it is warmer as well as 10 oz heavier.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-26-2019 at 09:50.

  7. #17
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    From Dutch's web site:
    https://dutchwaregear.com/product/up-insulation-3-oz/
    Warmth
    UP has tested to be warmer than a 600 fill power Goose Down when tested for warmth based on equal volume. While no synthetic can equal the warmth to weight, compressibility and resiliency of down, UP makes up for it with sheer durability and water resistance.
    OK, that says WARMER than 600 at the same volume, which I suppose is the same as same loft? In which case that 10oz heavier UQ that Cedar Ridge is comparing to, which appears to be the same loft, would also be a warmer quilt, just as with equal loft CS. Of course, 10 oz is a lot, so the question is: how much warmer?

    Loft
    In independent testing, UP has shown to have a loft equal to 625 Fill Power.
    OK, the loft equals 625FP. But, what we want to know is: warmth to weight. A CLO rating per oz would tell us that, if it was available.

    Durability
    A synthetic insulation is only as good as its durability. Having been tested under harsh washing condition, UP is able to withstand 20+ repeated washings showing no discernible cold spots or clumping in baffles up to 3″ x 10″. With the warmth close to a 700 fill power down and able to be used in larger cold weather products, this new blowable insulation is one that finally transcends the small, lightweight jacket baffles common seen in comparable insulation.
    I also have concerns about the durability of the coating on treated down, and even more so: what happens with that down omce that coating has worn off? Will it remain at least a water resistant and lofty as untreated down? Also, what about the Nikwax wash in stuff for down, how well does that work? Can treated down's water resistanve be restored if it wears off? Can water resistance be added to regular down with a wash in treatment?

  8. #18
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    Cedar Ridge tests their quilts for a *comfort rating*, which I can attest to. So the 10oz heavier UP will be comfort rated for 20* or a little lower based on my previous quilts from them.

    That’s quite a bit heavier, but again the cost to performance is high. Another vendor might get away with a little less UP if they don’t fully comfort rate.


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  9. #19
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    I have been asking some of these questions at the Cedar Ridge youtube site. Here is one quick answer I have gotten from these nice folks so far:
    Bill K UP is comparable to Climashield and Polargaurd in the terms of moisture handling. I think where UP shines is in being able to form around the body and in compression. We will be doing a compression comparison this coming week.
    So, there might still be an advantage to CS, if it handles the moisture just as well as UP, but would not be 10 oz heavier for the same temp rating. Unless, of course, it turns out that the 10 oz heavier quilt- about the same thickness as the down quilt, is also a warmer quilt.

    A 10 oz heavier CS Apex quilt would probably also be about the same thickness as an 850 FP quilt, but it would definitely be warmer than the down.

  10. #20
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    JustBill is most certainly on his way here ))

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