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  1. #21
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shug View Post
    I have the WB Diamondback 20º and it is a very cool and warm TQ.
    Also for lightweight mild weather camping I have used my JRB Ultralight Shenandoah 40º TQ the last couple trips.
    Cool AND warm! Eureeka!

    I dig the JRB gear. I would like a Greylock 4 someday. Seems like a really good value.

  2. #22
    Member erric's Avatar
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    Can confirm that Hammock Gear and UGQ are true to their rating. I'm a bit of a hot sleeper but I would trust both of them.

  3. #23
    Member erric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    Warbonnet to an extent.

    Diamondback TQ's can be had with pad attachment loops.
    They have a ground tarp. https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/pr...t-ground-tarp/

    Granted, that's not a huge selection, so I'm not challenging your point that E.E. has the larger selection of gear suited for both - TQ's for two, sleeping bags, bivys, larger selection of ground tarps...
    UGQ is frequently used by ground sleepers too. They offer a pad attachment system for their top quilts.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by erric View Post
    UGQ is frequently used by ground sleepers too. They offer a pad attachment system for their top quilts.
    I obviously don't have anyone's sales figures in hand... but a fairly recent development overall.

    A few years back there was a down shortage and price spike. Stuff got very expensive...
    When that crisis started to pass, Enlightened was one of the first (and the few at the time) to adjust their prices back down to reflect the material costs.
    As a reward for their good behavior... their market share took off.

    Not too long ago... I believe Marty at OWL was first... some lower priced blended downs became available. And 'economy versions' of quilts got going.
    Not long after that... the hammock cottage vendors started a race to the bottom on the various versions of their standard quilts made with lower cost materials.

    The vendors were already high quality vendors with good products, but suddenly the best value around was the hammock vendors top quilts.

    In addition- folks like myself climbed on the hammock bandwagon (or just got older and tossed on like that monty python sketch).
    Then we went back to our fellow backpackers or campers and said stuff like- "EE does make great stuff... but if you wanna save a few bucks... these hammock guys are going insane at the moment and giving this stuff away."

    I think we've moved past the absolute bottom of the down market. But as a result I think several vendors (here especially) have learned a few new tricks that are allowing them to expand their business.

    I'm not a reddit guy or much of a facebook guy... but I think that has been a huge help too in regards to vendors 'crossing over'.
    Reddit or Facebook doesn't really care if you are coming from a hammock forum, a backpacking forum, a bushcraft forum, hunting, fishing, glamping, or hostel hoping. Hell even if you're #vanlife you'll hear about some of this gear. Good stuff gets out there, bad stuff doesn't. It's less about who is 'your guy' and who makes good stuff.

    Bottom line... I've been around to watch it... but I'm really excited not only for the quality vendors who's hard work is paying off. But for all the customers too.
    Getting quality gear and quality community feedback at reasonable prices gets more and more folks out in the woods successfully.
    While the front country may be getting a hair more crowded- end of the day the woods needs all the friends it can get.

  5. #25
    Member erric's Avatar
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    A big part of it is ultralight thru hiker types switching to quilts to save weight. You're 100% correct on the reddit bit too; on r/ultralight in particular quilts are now more commonly recommended and discussed than traditional sleeping bags. It's for good reasons too beyond the weight savings in my opinion, mummy bags are constricting in a way a lot of people don't like. When they switch to a quilt they find they can actually move around, and with how uncomfortable ground sleeping is vs a hammock (imo) there's going to be a lot of moving around for most people

    UGQ in particular seems to be doing extremely well, they refer to themselves as rapidly expanding on their careers page. I was surprised to see how often they were getting mentioned by ground sleepers. It's funny because there are now several larger cottage vendors like Nunatak and Katabatic that are known for their quilts, but are rarely discussed by hammockers, and there are still a few hammock vendors that are rarely used by ground sleepers, even though they're all offering fundamentally the same type of product.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by erric View Post
    A big part of it is ultralight thru hiker types switching to quilts to save weight. You're 100% correct on the reddit bit too; on r/ultralight in particular quilts are now more commonly recommended and discussed than traditional sleeping bags. It's for good reasons too beyond the weight savings in my opinion, mummy bags are constricting in a way a lot of people don't like. When they switch to a quilt they find they can actually move around, and with how uncomfortable ground sleeping is vs a hammock (imo) there's going to be a lot of moving around for most people

    UGQ in particular seems to be doing extremely well, they refer to themselves as rapidly expanding on their careers page. I was surprised to see how often they were getting mentioned by ground sleepers. It's funny because there are now several larger cottage vendors like Nunatak and Katabatic that are known for their quilts, but are rarely discussed by hammockers, and there are still a few hammock vendors that are rarely used by ground sleepers, even though they're all offering fundamentally the same type of product.
    The old school magic bullet was the Western Mountaineering Summerlite. 32 degree mummy for about 18 ounces (it crept to 19 these days). Something many folks forget about with quilts is you still need the pad straps and appropriate head insulation. Add those in and things get more apples to apples on weight. But as you say... some don't like mummy bags. More importantly to LD hikers... quilts simply have a wider useable range. I used to swap bags on a long hike. A quilt doesn't go as low as a mummy... but it goes much higher more easily. A 20* quilt can serve you well in all but high summer on the AT, midwest, or south. If you're out west in elevation... you may never need another piece of sleeping gear. LD hikers are cheap *******s... but they will spring for one expensive quilt that does the job.
    Quilts do so well in the hammocks simply because you don't have to fight with them so much.

    But yar... the quilt thing has been creeping in since the early 2000's. That's about when Joe at Zpacks and Tim at EE were just getting going and about 2005 was the 'peak' of Backpacking Light's DIY community. There were many folks there who are now vendors. It's pretty tough to call Zpacks or Enlightened cottage guys anymore... While a few years old the last number I heard was both of them were at roughly 75-100 employees depending on the seasons and circumstances. Joe still has lots more seasonal folks. Tim actually teamed up with the Chinese ripoff artists at one point to sort things out... but controversial for a bit but I think it was a nice move.

    Katabatic rarely gets mentioned period. They are very high end. Yar Swami and plenty of other semi-permanent trail residents love em. They don't make any sense really for hammock use or most cheap LD hikers getting started. I think they are the best and I don't own one. Someplace around 20* or so I'd rather reach form a Western Mountaineering bag. The Versalite is 2lbs and fantastic.
    Hangers don't need an expertly differential cut top quilt. In fact it's actually fairly counter productive since you're covering a different body shape than you would on a pad.
    Easy way to think about it:
    On the ground- you use a flat pad... and a differential cut top quilt. The top quilt is doing 2/3rds of the work.
    In the air- it's the opposite. The UQ needs to be perfectly shaped and does all the heavy lifting. The top quilt can be flat and minimally sized.

    Nunatuk I don't know much about. My understanding is they sorta broke in with customizable synthetic puffy jackets.
    Ryan Jordan scratched his head and a few others finally realized that if you're going to sweat in your puffy for several days at a time that you might prefer synthetic.
    Not too familiar with their quilts and I have a violent dislike of Apex insulation. Otherwise they are filling a fairly specific niche on their other pieces from what I hear and good on them.

    Not to write the guys off- but I'll stick with my patagucci primaloft synthetics and my PLG top quilts for summer.

    But for the 'hammock' version. Paul at Arrowhead Equipment (another 2000's member from BPL) is the Apex king and for most here there isn't much reason to look elsewhere if they want synthetic.
    But Tim at EE is no slouch either. Both work with Apex and make good stuff. Paul is much more reasonably priced than Tim... and much cheaper and faster than Nunatuk.

    That said... I don't use synthetic much past 45* or so. (and I wouldn't be too surprised if Nunatuk read my posts and others regarding the advantages of using down/primaloft hybrid insulation).
    Most hanger feel that way... and given the lower cost of down products... Synthetic has lost the pricing advantage it once had in the hammock market.
    That's part of the reason Arrowhead remains a very good bargain and massively better alternative than picking up an Outdoor Vitals or other similar 'importer with marketing' style gear.

    End of the day though... market perception is still that 'Synthetic is budget gear and Down is superior'. There are technical points where this is not correct... but your average customer will feel better about purchasing down products. While the hydrophobic down coatings can be debatable.... they've also changed the dynamic on the conversation as many feel that 'problem' with down is fixed and there are zero reasons not to buy down beyond the cost. Since the cost has come down... no reason not to spring for 'the good stuff' for most.

    The real cheapos (said lovingly) of the hammock world are not concerned about weight. So converting military surplus gear, wool blankets, or even full blown skins with fur (seriously) into sleeping gear is all fair game.
    There are some clever things folks do with woobies and costco blankets. Stacking wally world foam to the moon or recycling down comforters are all viable moves in that world... the cheaper the better. Even had a feller here trying to sort out how he could harvest down from his ducks and another trying to figure out if he could do the same killing geese at the local pond.

    On the backpacking side... you can only do so much without buying some decent fabric to save weight. So other than pure dirtbaggery, theft, and begging not much to be done.
    The cheapos on the backpacking side tend to be much scummier and spend their time figuring out how to buy one pair of shoes at the REI garage sale and then exchange them for new ones every few hundred miles.
    Scoring flea market sleeping pads or osprey packs and 'finding' some damage is a handy way to score a replacement too. So not much cause to innovate when you can 'freeovate'

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    ... For what it's worth- I assumed the OP was speaking of Outdoor Vitals or a similar company....
    No but the company I have experience with is mentioned several times in this thread. I'm new to this community. I participate in two or three other communities related to camping and cycling and I know better than to appear to be complaining or calling out a company in a post, much less one of my first posts! And, yes, I understand the company eventually adjusted its manufacturing. I'm comfortable proceeding with my intended purchase having read the helpful feedback here. Now it's just a matter of selecting features (full length vs 3/4, over-fill etc) and deciding how much being lighter is worth to me.

    I came from (very infrequent) backpacking and bikepacking. I'm that guy who plans out a trip and then finds excuses not to go: weather, family, work etc, but over the summer I committed to ending the inertia even if it means limiting my trips to 24 hours. I got my base weight down to 13 pounds, 6.5 of it happens to be the pack. Don't ask. Then someone suggested a hammock and here I am. My quilt was purchased--several years ago-- because I needed something to compress down into a bike bag. EE was the only brand that kept coming to the surface in the bike and hiking forums. JRB was mentioned by one guy (Joe Cruz) and at the time the EE website was more polished so I went with that. Now the main players are Nunatak and Katabatic. Honestly if I hadn't found the hammock my next sleeping kit purchase would've been a Katabatic quilt. People really like their pad attachment system.

    It's super encouraging to hear the praise being offered to HG, LL, UGQ and the others mentioned here.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobonli View Post
    It's super encouraging to hear the praise being offered to HG, LL, UGQ and the others mentioned here.
    At risk of sounding fanboy-ish, which I don't want to do, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find folks here who have done business with any of those companies who would have much bad to say about them. I have a number of kits worth of gear and made a point to try out as many of the different vendors as I could. Personally I would vouch for any and all of the companies listed based one my experiences with them. I've not come across a cottage vendor quilt yet - down or synthetic - that I didn't think lived up to its rating, and in some cases they have exceeded their ratings. I've used one vendor's 0° topquilt at -15° in a hammock, albeit for a single night and with appropriate clothing layers to supplement.

    With an underquilt, the X-factor can be making sure you have it set up properly to avoid gaps and drafts. That can be tricky at times, though some styles are easier and/or more forgiving than others. As might have been mentioned, an underquilt protector can offer a bit of insurance if you don't mind the extra expense and a small amount of added weight, bulk, and setup time.
    Last edited by cmc4free; 09-26-2019 at 21:20.

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