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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobonli View Post

    And if this is a sensitive topic (I used the search feature and did not find a match) please feel free to PM me. Yes, I know the rating is only the starting point, that different people sleep differently etc.

    Thanks
    Bob
    Bob-
    To more directly answer your question:

    Rating insulation is not standard industry wide and you will find different standards in different niches of the outdoors industry.

    For example- Enlightened Equipment started as a cottage vendor primarily servicing long distance backpacking customers. (Zpacks and others fit this group).

    I point this out as this customer base tended to 'push' their gear a bit further. It was also made up of more younger, fit, and healthy folks who are 'running hot'. These ratings were appropriate for their customers at the time. Much like 'athletic cut' clothing fits fine when you are in good shape... but no so well if you are in average shape. In Enlightened's case; as they grew and their customer base expanded they had to bump up the fill to better match their current customer base.

    Hanging has a wider variety of members in it's customer base. And in general- hanging is an open air, under a tarp, more exposed activity. You're not in a tent or bivy like a ground user... and that extra 5-15* you may get from your shelter system will show up. By simply elevating yourself even 2' into the air you are 'in the breeze' and the more accurate temperature you are dealing with is the wind chill or 'real feel' temp rather than the actual thermometer reading.

    Point being- Almost every reputable cottage vendor who services the Hammock community has already adjusted to the customer base and conditions. As others mentioned the ratings are accurate, if not conservative.

    As far as other vendors- not all 'cottage vendors' are equal. Just because some dude is making stuff in his mom's basement doesn't mean they know what they are doing. I think the important word to remember is not 'cottage' but VENDOR. As in someone who sells gear in a professional manner with some experience doing so. While most cottage vendors did start things off as one person making stuff in a basement... not all folks making stuff in a basement succeed and turn the corner. A stuff sack, ridgeline bag or gathered end... give that little guy a shot if you'd like. Insulation and critical stuff- buy from a VENDOR. A vendor has sold some gear, had gear returned, had customers complain... and improved based upon that feedback. Even if qualified... that cottage MYOG guy slinging stuff just hasn't had enough volume go through the door to work out the kinks. If you're into being an early adopter and supporting these folks- no biggie so long as you understand what you're getting (and are charged fairly) for what you buy.

    As far as Amazon and other discount bozos... You get what you pay for. If you can sort out what you are buying, and feel it's still a good value- more power to you.
    But for the most part these 'vendors' are folks with some website/social media/marketing savvy. Generally they couldn't thread a sewing machine if their life depended on it. They are importers, nothing more.
    Some use the stuff they sell, some don't. Some are just eager motivated young folks who genuinely feel they are doing a good job. Some are scumbags.

    Same advice on these guys- you want to pick up a cheap tent stake or accessory... your choice. You want stuff that is critical- buy from a trusted VENDOR.


    So long story- Most of the vendors you will find talked about here are established HAMMOCK cottage VENDORS you can trust.
    Some of them are really long past the point you'd call them cottage. Many are family owned or small to medium sized businesses at this point.

  2. #12
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    To emphasize a point, just because a quilt is rated at X degrees, it doesn't mean you will be comfortable at X degrees in it. Remember - the quilt doesn't generate the heat. YOU DO. The reason it is always recommend to "try at home" before you go out on an adventure is to learn your contribution to the comfort equation. For example, I've found that within 10 degrees of the items comfort rating is about my limit. I can do other things as it approach the limit or go a little below it (35 degrees for a 40 degree quilt) - like put on a balaclava or light sleeping jacket. And I can augment the rating by using an under quilt protector (UQP). It also matters if the rating limit is for a top quilt vs an under quilt.

    I don't think any of the established Vendors on hammock forums wants to trick you. And a 20 degree setup is a great place to start. It might take you from the mid 20's up to summer temperatures. I've found that down is amazingly "higher than rated temperature" friendly. Meaning I can use a 20 degree UQ in much warmer temperatures and be very comfortable.

    Because I usually set up alone, it is difficult to get the "fit" just right between quilt and hammock. For that reason, and several others, I use a UQP. I highly recommend it as extra protection from wind, rain, and perhaps a sub-optimal hang setup.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  3. #13

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    Thank you JustBill and Cougarmeat.

  4. #14
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobonli View Post
    Thank you. If I had spent 30 minutes doing some background checking on my current quilt I would have chosen differently at the time. Learned from my mistake!
    I think you might be referring to EE, but if not, there are others who have observed that their ratings seem overly optimistic. I've seen enough comments to say that this is a pattern.

    However, I've heard that EE responded to this about 1.5-2 years ago by using more down, and I have two quilts produced after this development—a 20deg Revolt (UQ) and a 30deg Enigma—and I believe this is the case. Both of these seem true to rating in my very subjective opinion!

    My 0deg HG Incubator also seems true to rating for me, and I've seen enough of their products in use by others to say you can trust them, as well as Loco Libre and I'm sure all of the other regular cottage vendors here. There really is an abundance of fantastic gear available at very reasonable prices.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobonli View Post
    I have various sleeping bags and a 40 degree quilt from ground camping. I know that some vendors can be prone to hyperbole when estimating the temperature range of their products. For example my 40 degree quilt is really only good to about 45-50 and the company has taken some gruff about being too generous with their ratings.
    As others have mentioned, unlike sleeping bags there's no standard rating for quilts and underquilts, so everyone uses different criteria.

    But regarding your quilt, there's one thing told to me by one European quilt/underquilt/sleeping bag manufacturer (Cumulus): for quilts the rating often depends on whether the quilt is used in a hammock with an underquilt or in a tent with a pad. For example, Cumulus has "top quilts" (primarily meant for hammock use) and "quilts" (primarily for tents). Both have otherwise similar specs, but the temperature rating of a "top quilt" goes lower than a similar "quilt". When I asked about that, they said that this is just because of the way they measure the ratings. An underquilt curves around you and protects you more from the cold than a pad, thus essentially the same quilt can be rated lower for hammock use. I was told that their "quilt" would go just as low as their "top quilt" in a hammock, regardless of different ratings (and similarly the "top quilt" wouldn't go as low as rated on ground). They were very open about this and their website even says "when used with underquilt XXX" after the rating of the top quilts.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitti View Post
    As others have mentioned, unlike sleeping bags there's no standard rating for quilts and underquilts, so everyone uses different criteria.

    But regarding your quilt, there's one thing told to me by one European quilt/underquilt/sleeping bag manufacturer (Cumulus): for quilts the rating often depends on whether the quilt is used in a hammock with an underquilt or in a tent with a pad. For example, Cumulus has "top quilts" (primarily meant for hammock use) and "quilts" (primarily for tents). Both have otherwise similar specs, but the temperature rating of a "top quilt" goes lower than a similar "quilt". When I asked about that, they said that this is just because of the way they measure the ratings. An underquilt curves around you and protects you more from the cold than a pad, thus essentially the same quilt can be rated lower for hammock use. I was told that their "quilt" would go just as low as their "top quilt" in a hammock, regardless of different ratings (and similarly the "top quilt" wouldn't go as low as rated on ground). They were very open about this and their website even says "when used with underquilt XXX" after the rating of the top quilts.
    Yar- quite true... though there are not many vendors in the USA who service both ground dwellers and hangers (Enlightened is the only one I know).
    https://1drv.ms/b/s!Apygyt54yYPwg5BPmq22GYZ1SR9sNQ

    If you click on that link it's the pamphlet for my Primaloft Gold Top Quilts. Page three was designed for folks who are newer to quilts but it does have some information and basic graphics to help explain how your quilt works differently depending on your application. (Ground or air) I'm not sharing it to show off the quilts- but to share that information page.

    For what it's worth- I assumed the OP was speaking of Outdoor Vitals or a similar company. Most people do not really understand how synthetic insulation works in real life, nor are those who 'import' rather than 'manufacture' gear very good at sorting out how to properly design that sorta stuff. They are usually just looking through a manual of past products the manufacturer has stolen from other vendors who they worked for before. It's not much different than the 3 panel amazon special hammocks... one company or two on Ali-baba makes them and prints your logo on the package for you. Not much different than picking stationary or corporate do-dads with your name printed on them.

    Sewn goods manufacturing methods are much different than cottage or MYOG methods. Things you can do by hand or on your home machine simply don't translate to the world of thousand piece orders and mass production. If what you want to do cannot be done by a production machine- it isn't happening. Many of those subtle details in construction methods translate into a piece of synthetic material not performing as it's laboratory rating might otherwise suggest.

    Me personally- the rating is the rating. It's based upon thermal resistance of the fill you use. Not who you are or how you use it.
    A more accurate way to rate sleeping gear would be to list R-value or CLO... rather than an estimated temperature.
    Consumers like seeing a temperature though... and over time we each develop some rules of thumb for personal use to adjust from there.
    But if you had a fixed value like CLO or R-value... then you'd know exactly what you're buying and could adjust to your unique use.
    From there you could educate your customer about that system and how it works for them... rather than constantly debate about the simple fact that 'there is no such thing as 40 degrees'.

    For the most part though-
    Backpackers care about specs- which is why ratings can seem optimistic to some. For most backpackers- having a chill here or there means the gear is 'just right'.
    Hangers care about comfort- which is why ratings tend to be conservative. For many hangers- 'I woke up' means the gear failed or is rated incorrectly.
    Yes that sounds snobby or elitist perhaps... but it is what it is. No judgement, just the realities of each customer base and what they expect.

    As mentioned- Enlightened Equipment had to change the amount of fill they used in their product as their customer base changed.
    Long distance UL backpackers (experienced sleepers) can literally do more with less. And that customer base was happy with the companies rating.
    But as EE grew in size and it's customer base expanded into more 'average' users... they had to adjust the fill amounts to match the expectations of the consumer.

    When I first started looking at hammock vendors (coming from general gear and UL backpacking) I was surprised how overfilled most of the gear was for a given rating.
    Actually I was mainly trying to figure out why all the top quilts were so much heavier... but that translated to the underquilts too.

    Nobody actually has any serious experience or research regarding UQ's. Not that it's amazing, but the US military and others have studied insulation for sleeping gear and clothing for decades. There are several decades worth of quality sleeping bags produced for mountaineering and outdoor use. A top quilt fits right in with this stuff... but Under quilts don't follow the same rules.

    This community and the vendors who work with it have truly done the best research possible- actual field use from thousands of customers over nearly a decade.
    As new shell materials start to penetrate this market... the quilts are catching up to other niches of the outdoor market in terms of current materials technologies.
    But in terms of how to design, build, fill, and rate an Underquilt- there is not a more qualified collection of people on the planet. That is not hyperbole, just a simple fact.

    As good as Tim at Enlightened is with his gear- his underquilt sucks. He was one who helped perfect and work out Karo Step baffles early on at BPL... but that is simply the wrong application for an UQ. I suspect his deep involvement in the Karo Step leaves him unhappy to let it go... but one of these days he will I suspect. For the price- He makes the best top quilts around still. He's been doing it a decade longer than anyone here. The only better top quilt is from Katabatic... but that is serious overkill for a hammock as the complex differential cuts are wasted money if you're not on the ground.

    Underground Quilt, Hammock Gear, Loco Libre and Little Shop of Hammocks are the best there is at underquilts. They are each a hair different, but all know what they are doing.
    I'm sure there are a few others who can stitch fabric well enough, myself included, to build a solid UQ. But you need a year or two of orders, returns, complaints, or pats on the back to really sort things out. Knowledge is great- but experience is better.

  7. #17
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Yar- quite true... though there are not many vendors in the USA who service both ground dwellers and hangers (Enlightened is the only one I know).
    Warbonnet to an extent.

    Diamondback TQ's can be had with pad attachment loops.
    They have a ground tarp. https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/pr...t-ground-tarp/

    Granted, that's not a huge selection, so I'm not challenging your point that E.E. has the larger selection of gear suited for both - TQ's for two, sleeping bags, bivys, larger selection of ground tarps...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    Warbonnet to an extent.

    Diamondback TQ's can be had with pad attachment loops.
    They have a ground tarp. https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/pr...t-ground-tarp/

    Granted, that's not a huge selection, so I'm not challenging your point that E.E. has the larger selection of gear suited for both - TQ's for two, sleeping bags, bivys, larger selection of ground tarps...
    Yar... Brandon should have been included there with the other four. Though like the above brands; you'd never have heard of them outside this forum or have them be discussed elsewhere.
    That was part of the point I was making... until recently most here didn't really know of or pay attention to cottage folks like EE as their start came through a different community. And even on Whiteblaze you'd rarely here about any of the hammock cottage vendors in the general forum. A HF person wouldn't reccommend EE... and a backpacker wouldn't have suggested Warbonnet for a top quilt even five years ago... they just were not on your radar unless you happened to be a member of each community.

    There are alot of great strides being made in terms of 'general' outdoors folks and niche hobbies beginning to overlap and learn from each other. For a time things were pretty isolated to a few forums or groups of people that knew each other. I personally find that part of the hammock community very appealing and positive... you've got a little bit of everyone here. And quality cottage innovators are present in each of the little niches.

    And speaking of glaring omissions; Jacks R Better actually better fits your point better. The Sierra Sniveler was a very popular quilt in the early days of LD hiking, for a time probably more so than anything anyone else was building. To an extent nobody was really building down top quilts. They have been around longer than most and were more well known outside the hammock crowd as a viable vendor.

    Oddly enough... I think that since many folks in the hammock world are like me (relatively new to the party)... Jack's gets overlooked. I just did it, lol.
    I watched Tim build up EE from his days at backpacking light when that was the best MYOG/DIY forum around... and for the most part if you wanted that type of gear you had to make it. So I tend to 'forget' about Jacks too in light of those who followed.

    Folks naturally talk about the hot new stuff, and folks new to the hobby start off with what people are talking about. Jacks is a vendor that is just there with solid gear you don't really think about... but they predated any of the folks above.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    And speaking of glaring omissions; Jacks R Better actually better fits your point better.

    ...

    Oddly enough... I think that since many folks in the hammock world are like me (relatively new to the party)... Jack's gets overlooked. I just did it, lol.
    Great point. I just did it, too.

  10. #20
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4free View Post
    Warbonnet to an extent.

    Diamondback TQ's can be had with pad attachment loops.
    They have a ground tarp. https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/pr...t-ground-tarp/

    Granted, that's not a huge selection, so I'm not challenging your point that E.E. has the larger selection of gear suited for both - TQ's for two, sleeping bags, bivys, larger selection of ground tarps...
    I have the WB Diamondback 20º and it is a very cool and warm TQ.
    Also for lightweight mild weather camping I have used my JRB Ultralight Shenandoah 40º TQ the last couple trips.












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