Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton
Hi Leiavoia. When you say "a trip where I tested this concept. I brought an “underquilt protector” made from a sheet of 0.7 mil painters plastic and put this over the underquilt. ", do you mean you put it over the outside of the UQ(last layer between UQ and cold air), where condensation appeared as expected, as almost guaranteed? Or do you mean you put it between the hammock and the UQ, inside/on the warm side of all under insulation? If the latter, I am surprised that any condensation or sweat that might have occurred made it through the painters plastic into the UQ. Isn't the painter's plastic water proof, pretty much like a tarp?
Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-10-2019 at 08:47.
I missed this the first time around. I am with BillyBob. It sounds like you put this around and under the UQ, which is not a good idea. The point is to keep a barrier between you and your insulation, except for possibly a optional wicking/comfort layer next to skin, which I figured the hammock fabric could serve as.
I suppose you could (and perhaps SHOULD?) also use a UQ protector in addition to this in high humidity scenarios. If the name of the game is to keep insulation dry for extended periods, it would seem appropriate when necessary.
BillyBob, I foresee a potential conundrum here though. What about the TQ? Would it NEED to also have an inner vapor barrier to keep the TQ dry? Or would it HELP, but still work if just looking for a hybrid/partial solution?
Okay. We are talking about keeping insulation dry on extended trips. Which is the primary use case for vapor barriers. A loose, wind resistant, but breathable outer UQ shell would be the best choice for windy scenarios. Your skin dries out much quicker than down, so a vapor barrier serves as a way to contain your sweat and natural heat until you wake up or get a chance to dry out.
I've just read this page three and it sounds like there is a lot of confusion on the use/purpose of a vapor barrier (like the non-breathable painter plastic sheet) and a true UQP. The BREATHABLE UQP goes under the quilt to prevent convection heat loss and rain splash - along with numerous other benefits mentioned in other threads. A Vapor Barrier goes between the hammock sleeper and the UQ - to prevent vapor (turned to moisture) from entering/gathering in the UQ. It is often used by climbers on long treks - where they have no opportunity to dry out their bags which would accumulate more and more vapor/moisture if it weren't for the barrier.
Sounds like leiavoia used a vapor barrier (non-breathable by definition of purpose) as an Under Quilt Protector. That's why the experience was less than optimal.
In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.
That's correct. I'm not a dummy, but i had to try it!
I suppose the "ideal" vapor-barrier UQ w/ protector would simply be a regular UQ wrapped in a giant plastic bag, like when you get your clothes back from the dry cleaners. No interior moisture. No heat loss from wind. No risk of getting dirty. Hmmmm...
Billybob58, Your post number 7 should be in a hammock bible. Very much appreciate that post. I'm knew to this UQ thing and have recently bought a HG incubator. I didn't want to be afraid to get out there with it due to moisture phobia.
I would like to add that some posters have an automated reply with cliche information on this forum. It's to the point you just know what is going to be said. An example is a candle (lantern) on your ridgeline = "if you like melted nylon stuck to your skin". Yet, I hang my beeswax UCO from my ridgeline using a 100% polyester fronkey bugnet no problems. It is very important to hear real world experience with an explaination. You nailed it, and I thank you very much for it.
My personal preference is to use Stephenson's Warmlite(sp?) VB clothing with fuzzy stuff liner. This stops all body vapor/sweat other than what is exhaled, and I use a frost bib to mostly stop that. So I won't have any issues with the TQ. I can see the potential problem-and I'm sure someone has encountered it- where if you over heated and had a good bit of sweat, it could get from your backside to your TQ if not using a VB liner or clothing. ( notice I said sweat. I doubt there is going to be much condensation against an inside the insulation VB. Think about it: where does condensation happen? On cold surfaces, right? Have Y'all ever seen it happen on a warm surface, like say a warm windshield? Ever see condensed breath when it is 80+ degrees?
But, you can certainly over insulate and over heat and sweat, and even if originating on your back, if you get a nice puddle going, it could get in your TQ. However, having admitted the possibility or even likelihood, for 12+ years I have used a space blanket/VB under my hammock on top of the open cell foam(aka sponge) pads, all inside another outside undercover/VB/UQP, on the HH Super Shelter, as well as inside a Pea Pod, and I have never had a wet TQ except from my breath. But I'm sure it has happened to someone. Maybe I somehow manage to be just comfy warm enough without over heating and sweating?
Yep, you have just described the infamous HH Super Shelter. A space blanket/VB under the hammock and on top of the OCF pad and whatever additional insulation I put in there, with a 2nd VB surrounding all of that in the form of the sil-nylon under cover. Also, if memory serves, the original WB Yeti had a sort of(removable) sil-nylon pillow case that surrounded the UQ hammock side and out side. This might have been a considerable contributor to the impressive performance of that CS UQ. As in this about zero F test with no tarp:
Thanks for the kind words, XJ! Nice to think that I can occasionally supply some actual useful/helpful info. This VB concept has always seemed to me at least worth experimenting with in the back yard with safe bail out. My experiments with Patagonia VB socks began in the mid 1980s. Always a big help for cold feet, for me and some friends who also tried it. During the last 12+ years, I have slowly added to my experience using VBs in hammocks. Always works for me. But, it is super important to study up on the theory and know that you understand it before heading out from the back yard or a car camp. Because do it wrong, and you are almost guaranteed to end up with wet insulation and cold.
I love to refer to our famous Dejoha- the guy who wrote the hammock camping book "The Perfect Hang"? He had done a thread here explaining VB theory with good illustrations, but I don't think he had actually been using them. Then one night in the high mountains, when he realized that even though the temps were well within his quilts ratings, he was about to start shivering, for various reasons. Then he remembered VB theory, and since there was about zero chance of rain, he wrapped his tarp around himself, under his TQ and above his UQ. Shivering converted to a toasty warm sleep.
Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-11-2019 at 00:21.
Don't know what size your painters cloth is, but if big enough this would make a fun experiment(for crazy folks like me anyway): VB wrapped totally around the UQ, under the hammock. So that the outside is covered as you already did, but also the inside UQ shell covered, which should keep any body vapor from condensing inside the UQ. Then - like the HHSS - you would have total wind block PLUS dry down with the VB blocking the travel of vapor into your quilt. Also, evaporative cooling on your back side- a considerable source of cooling- would be blocked. If you ever feel up to trying such an experiment, you might want to go light on the TQ to prevent over heating, unless you are really pushing the temp limits of your UQ and/or TQ.
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