Cost of Going Lighter

[Just Bill]

I want to do a stupid light trip someday. For me that involves only candy bars, no hot meals/drinks, no change of clothing whatsoever, no rain gear (maybe a $1 poncho), grocery store bags instead of stuff sacks (if any) and an inappropriately-rated quilt set. Good clean family fun!

On the drive home, I'll only be thinking "was saving 5lbs worth it?"

I know yer joking around... but that's basically an FKT kit (fastest known time/speed hike/record attempt).

It's really not as bad or as unsafe as folks think. Or that hard these days.

You can buy 12 ounce packs or even 9 ounce packs right at REI.

Not everyone can MYOG a 10 ounce synthetic 45* top quilt for 12 ounces... but you can buy a down one from plenty of places now.
A Western Mouneering Summerlite will let you push a little further if you need a 32* mummy for 19 ounces.

The Uberlite just launched if you wanted to really push it, but the old standby Women's Neo-Air Xlite pairs really well with that WM bag to freezing still at only 12 ounces.

10 ounce pack, 10 ounce quilt, 8 ounce sleeping pad to rock out in summer. (28 ounces)
Bump it to 12 ounce pack, 19 ounce mummy and 12 ounce pad and you're up to freezing. (43 ounces)

You can rock out in your pink shorts with an 8 ounce SOL bivy ala Joey Camps.
Or do it Matt Kirk style with your MLD poncho tarp and hunk of polycro for about 6 ounces.
Both of those fellas completed speed hikes of the AT.

Go nuts and give Zpacks a few hundred bucks and you can go anywhere from 6-16 ounces (tarp to full blown tent).

Summer plus minimal shelter and you're at about 36 ounces... plus some fixins like a headnet, stakes, lines and 40 ounces was always about right.
Push the season a bit and budget 12 ounces and you're at a 55 ounces... plus some fixins and 60 ounces is fine.

Your 40 ounce kit, plus 8 ounces for misc puts you at a 3lb base.
60 ounce kit gives you 20 ounces until you hit the magic 5lb base.

Still plenty of room in there for starbucks via, power bars, malto mix and trail mix.

Even at a more stately 20 Miles per day... you can reach resupply fairly quickly.
At 30 ish miles per day its a 3-4 day per section haul on the AT.
At current 50 MPD FKT paces... you rarely carry more than 1.5 days of food.

Yar there is lots of stuff 'missing' but not as much as you might think, most of it fits in the diddy bag.

I think one major issue that folks contemplating this sort of kit face is that they don't see how they could do 'THIER' type of trip. But that's sorta the point. This kit would blow donkey if you were walking 4-8 hours a day and lounging at camp. It is horrible for sitting around the fire and horrendous for preparing an exceptional meal on the summit as you take in your surroundings. I mean there isn't even a bottle allotted to carry bourbon. Let alone a cup to pour it into. Thankfully cigars are a consumable though and don't count against you.

However it's not unsafe or dangerous (for responsible people). In some ways it's much safer. More often than not- simply walking yourself out is the best solution to a backcountry problem. And being completely unburdened and able to walk for many hours per day will get you to safety fairly quickly.

As Cmoulder pointed out.. at some point you have chop out entire systems (like your cook system) and go 'cold food.'
As I (and others older than me might point out)... it's not uncommon to find 1-2lbs of 'electronics' in even UL kits. Hell my **** phone weighs 9 ounces in the case.
A 'personal location beacon' is somehow 'mandatory' or foolish not to use.
Trekking poles seemed to quietly slip into that category for some.

The list goes on.

I think it's a trip worth taking for at least a weekend. Just to see. You're not going to die unless you do something really dumb.

Worst case you learn something- which nearly always weighs nothing to carry with you in the future.

The no cook thing isn't much fun- but a few esbit tabs and firebuilding skills can sneak you in a hot cup of coffee for an ounce or three.
And having that trick up your sleeve lets you slam a hot cup of water if you pushed too far on your clothing/sleep system.

If a goofy cold front (or bad section) slides in- a few spare batteries will allow you to night hike and sleep during the day when it's warmer.

If you pick your clothes carefully, design your quilt to work as a puffy jacket, and carry three pairs of darn tough socks... you don't NEED much else really.

If you know a few tricks and carry a few things in the diddy bag you might even find yourself on a speed hike patching others gear or treating their blisters from time to time.

That list goes on too...

As mentioned before- once you know where the bottom is- easy enough to add back to your pack.
I will happily go on a car camping trip, a lazy canoe float, or causal weekend hike in. Learning a little about each style of trip only makes your personal trips more satisfying.
Everything is pretty light these days... and 10lbs is something we used to have to fight pretty hard for. Now it almost seems like luxury, lol.

Nor is it expensive (really). A good hammock kit can cost you a $1000.
But for a ground kit... a $1000 will make you pretty dangerous these days.

As is correctly pointed out- losing 20lbs (or more) from your body makes life easier too... ironically being lighter also makes using lighter gear more comfortable.
Being younger helps too, but being older and fatter is a fantastic recipe for needing a hammock system.

Overall- it's a good thing I think that some of these myths persist.
I don't feel any more or less safe with more or less stuff. I just have the stuff I chose for the trip I chose to take.

With the 'crazy' UL stuff.... When you're ready- you're ready.
Just buying stuff doesn't work well in any activity- so nothing wrong with not buying stuff you're not comfortable using. Or bringing stuff that makes you comfortable.

[cmoulder]

As usual, great synopsis JB.

Dang, and you reminded me to put cigars and JD in the consumable category!!

And I really am a HYOH guy despite my personal obsession with going light, which is driven far, far more by my desire for simplicity and efficiency and not some arbitrary number for weight. It doesn't bother me in the least that I'll never be <5lb and I don't care if I go >10lb (or 13lb or so in the winter) although weight is a useful metric for keeping gear creep in check. But even that is not a problem any more because my kit evolution and 'distillation' have almost reached their limits... there's nothing I want to add, subtract or change. I wouldn't slam the door completely, however, because maybe technology will come along with something better, for example, than DCF for a tarp, which might catch my interest. But I kinda doubt it.

[Just Bill]

Yar... you're 'there'. I think you mentioned it above at one point; after a few years of intense study on the SUL subject... like anything else it fizzles and settles down as you sort it out.
And technically- The bottle you carry the jack goes in your base weight... the jack in your consumables.

Guess folks here would easily understand the zeal and obsession when switching to hammocks.
Gobbling up Shug videos, trying to sort out all the terms. Trying stuff that doesn't work, trying more stuff. Finding something that works and then having to upgrade all the stuff that ties into the stuff that works. Until eventually everything just works. Perfectly normal behavior.

Ground dwellers look at hammock folks about as cross eyed as a traditional backpacker looks at UL folks. Ain't much different though. It's just a style of backpacking one prefers.
I still feel that it's worth practicing all the styles at least a little... as you never know what will fit yours.

I was curious about this hammock BS I kept hearing about... and now it is my primary style of sleep system.
I just try to encourage others to see UL ideas the same way. There is no clear finish line or specific set of rules or gear you need to follow.
Knowing how to do something is never a bad idea. Just because I have taken sub five pound kits out... doesn't mean I have to forever and ever or that some arbitrary number above that barest minimum doesn't end up being ideal.
Though it is fair to point out that many new converts... be they UL or hangers... are often overzealous in the first year or so of seeing the light. That's always annoying and you'll hear violent rejection of anything that is not on the true path to nirvana they just discovered. 'I'll NEVER go to ground' is just as annoying as a pack sniffer going through your gear list.

Not knowing how to do something though does mean that you are forced into the limits of your knowledge forever and ever. You will often and easily find a SUL skilled backpacker carry much more than 5, 10 or 20lb kits. In fact you'll rarely find one who only uses the lowest kit they can. You will never find someone locked into a standard kit who is able to build a 5lb kit unless they choose to learn how. It's simply incomprehensible with the blinders on... so out comes the 'stupid, foolish, irresponsible, unsafe'. Within their knowledge base it is a fact that anything less than what they currently carry is wrong. Bit like saying because I use a bridge no-one should ever buy a gathered end.

The only all or nothing thing with traveling into the woods is the traveling into the woods part.
The rest is just details.

[cmoulder]

I know that you and I and a few others are just kicking this dead horse among ourselves at this point ()

However you have hit upon the point that is to me most irksome, which is that people who do not understand the concept feel qualified to poo-poo it and label it dangerous/foolish/unsafe/uncomfortable and reject it out of hand.

I've done a lot of 'go-light trips' in every season and kind of weather (except desert) since 2012 and none of those adjectives has ever applied at any point. I did do many (!) quick overnight trips to test gear, and made sure my gear choices were adequate for the conditions. When I was a ground sleeper, I once took 3 different CCF mats on a 'quickie' trip... a GG Thinlight, a 3/8" from Lawson and a RidgeRest SOlite... to see which one would suffice in very cold weather when combined with my air mat. (As Goldilocks would have it, the 3/8" Lawson was just right and weighed right at 7 ounces.) And I've done this with literally everything in my pack.

Now, for how this CCF mat ties into things... A few years back I did a 'bucket list' trip with a long-time friend to camp on top of Slide Mountain in the Catskills in the winter. We came in from Woodland Valley and did Wittenberg and Cornell on the way, which is actually a respectably challenging trip on snowshoes, with roughly 4000' of vertical. (Woodland to Wittenberg alone is 2400' climbing...) Anyway, the weather forecast was right and winds were relatively light, and it got down to around 0°F, maybe a little lower. But we were both comfortable and slept very well, with the 3/8" Lawson CCF complementing my air mat perfectly.

The next morning we had coffee and breakfast and got all packed up. I was using my old-style 52L Arc Blast which is a good deal smaller than what most would consider a "proper" winter pack, but it fit all my gear easily, including a Jetboil Sumo (1.8L) setup and a large 230g canister of fuel which was needed because we melted snow for water.

So, we're on the trail for about 5 minutes and encounter a group of about 6 people on their way up from Rt 47 (Big Indian). We learn it is an AMC group and chat briefly with the leader, who is a young lady whose age is about late 20s/early 30s. When she learns that we camped on the summit overnight, she takes one look at my pack and goes ballistic, telling me how I didn't have enough gear and was not only endangering my life but the lives of my would-be rescuers, and that what I had done was the height of irresponsibility. This verbal assault came on so suddenly and unexpectedly that I was really at a loss for a few seconds, one of those "what just happened?" moments. I think the Brits use the word "gobsmacked" for this. After staring at her for a while with a smile on my face, I said "You don't know anything about me, sweetheart" and we walked away.

Here is a photo of the "scene of the crime." My buddy, John, passed away last December, and this was the last really significant trip we did together.

[<-Pointer]

Me personally - no, I would not upgrade the 20 degree quilt that I already have. I might however need an ultralight 40 degree quilt for summers and get a SUL version of that. If you want to do a really SUL set up then that may make more sense depending on when/where you are hiking anyway (there's all sorts of creative ways to justify buying new gear!)

[Five Tango]

I just realized I can spend over $300 for an ultralight pack to save a pound over my current pack OR I could just carry 1.5 liters of water rather than 2.And I always take more food than I usually wind up eating.

[Just Bill]

Cmoulder...
Gobsmacked sounds proper indeed.
You are a proper English Gentleman for restraining yourself from vigorously reddening her cheeks with the backside of your hand.

You ever hear that joke- 'There is nothing more dangerous than a first year psychology major."

Seems that 'first year' students of the AMC winter mountaineering courses might be up there too

[Just Bill]

I just realized I can spend over $300 for an ultralight pack to save a pound over my current pack OR I could just carry 1.5 liters of water rather than 2.And I always take more food than I usually wind up eating.

Quite true... though I tend to appreciate the inverse.
Money doesn't grow on trees... but in the woods it's just paper.

Not having to think about how much food I have, how much water to carry, or how many miles I may or may not make to precisely consume my consumables in the precisely proper time is nice.
Not having to care if I carry a glass or a bottle of bourbon 'just in case' is also a joy.

UL stuff is only bothersome when typing on the forum, agonizing over the specs, or balancing the checkbook. Those are town problems.

On the trail... I don't worry about much.
I have enough spare room for 'luxury items' like an extra liter of water, meal, coffee, stove fuel, or even a few beers.
I've seen folks scanning maps, trail guides, or crunching data on their smart phones with every app you could find to figure out if they need 1L or 1.5 liters.
I just grab 2 or 3 liters and walk on without thinking about it.

It's just as funny watching some person at a resupply staring at that extra granola bar or deliberating for an hour over a tuna packet as they hover over the hiker box.
Or hikers carrying a bag of food out of town because they don't have 'a liter to spare' in their perfected pack for so much as a six inch sub to eat at lunchtime.

I'll spend $300 of town money any day to avoid dealing with all that crap when I'm actually out enjoying myself far from the world of dollar signs.

[joe_guilbeau]

Put the money towards socks and shoes; then you will always be lighter. Drink a 10 oz coffee in the morning instead of a 16 oz coffee; you save money and 6 oz of weight. Skip a meal — lots of choices to consider. I did leg lifts and lost 4 lbs. It is all perspective. Life is short, go ahead and spend money with no regrets, or save money with no regrets. Only you will be able to finagle the particulars of what choices are made.

[cmoulder]

Put the money towards socks and shoes; then you will always be lighter. Drink a 10 oz coffee in the morning instead of a 16 oz coffee; you save money and 6 oz of weight. Skip a meal — lots of choices to consider. I did leg lifts and lost 4 lbs. It is all perspective. Life is short, go ahead and spend money with no regrets, or save money with no regrets. Only you will be able to finagle the particulars of what choices are made.

lol I have thought about this from time to time, that my main gear expenditures now are for shoes and socks. (Overall money pits are travel and food.)

I had gone through quite a few pairs of the Wright coolmesh 2-layer socks and absolutely loved them but was getting only about 150mi out of a pair before they wore completely through in the ball of the foot. So at $15/pair they were costing me about 10¢ per mile! I've been trying various Darn Tough socks and they are, true to their name, much more durable.

That's also a good point about not 'beating yourself up' over purchasing mistakes or money spent. The main thing is to get out and walk and enjoy life while we can. My feeling has always been, when it's not fun any more it's time to go home.