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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer003 View Post
    @Just Bill. You had me laughing calling the BMBH "the coffin." I had never heard that, but just this weekend I took this picture (below) because it looked, and felt, like a coffin.

    Attachment 171806
    Yar... it comes up here and there for those asking about my 'Happy Medium' vs a BMBH.
    While many appreciate and enjoy the 'wide open' aspect of a bridge... for those who miss that feeling of being enveloped in their hammock the BMBH is the better option.
    As a fella who enjoys cowboy camping I feel a bit claustrophobic in some hammocks... but some feel too exposed in something else and really enjoy that aspect of the BMBH.

    I can't recall exactly who coined the term but it's one I've heard over the years and pretty accurate.
    It's a bonus for anyone concerned about feeling 'tippy' as you're well below the suspensions center of gravity as well.

    There was a thread a bit back about 'no love for the BMBH' I didn't chime in on- but the coffin is one of those 'love it or hate it' features that I think peels folks away.
    I think it's also simply a matter of timing... a bit before my time as far as being focused on hammocks but it appears to me that the BMBH was out and fairly established before the hammock 'boom'.
    As interest in hammocks and forum traffic increased the RR was introduced and prospective buyers likely saw more buzz going on with the RR and were drawn there to start.
    So as a result I think that you had a wave of folks get involved and gave the RR a shot and stayed with it... so as the topic came up the referrals were more likely to mention the RR.
    I tend to direct most folks curious about bridges to one of those before my stuff simply on the basis of cost and completeness of system available.

    From my perspective...
    Both are solid bridges for those that fit in them with a fairly clean list of pros/cons to discuss.
    The biggest difference is sleep position with the BMBH offering a pretty straightforward flat and stable bedspace, though it's the most prone to shoulder squeeze it can be easier for side sleepers to avoid. As a result though you don't have to deal with any cold shoulders or concern with wriggling out or spilling your top quilt off the edge.

    The RR does a very low fabric to bar ratio at the head end to offer a bit of a wedge shaped bedspace for your torso. (The effect is like one of those wedge pillows for sleep apnea). This results in less shoulder squeeze for a given design but a slightly more limited range of sleep positions.

    Both are slightly polarizing in that you like them or you don't... but I don't see that as a bad thing... just 'is what it is'.
    Both bridges benefit from pads being used in terms of comfort... but that can be a good thing really.
    They both offer alot of bang for your buck and a solid system of established components to flush them out into a field ready kit.

    Although they can be a bit more money on the face... I still think bridges are an excellent starting point for those interested in hammocks.
    Most folks are coming from the ground and used to simply; laying down and going to sleep.
    UQ's are 'better'... but sometimes using the pad you already own comfortably is a pretty nice feature to have when switching over. And being covered when you want to go to ground is always a new user concern.

    Without the need to find an angle or sweet spot... you are less prone to getting all tangled up and frustrated in a standard mummy bag or fighting to stay on your sleeping pad.
    You're also less prone to tinkering and fiddling as overall bridges are more forgiving in terms of pitching them in the field. You can 'blow' a setup a pretty decent amount and still get a decent nights sleep.

    So overall they tend to be a better 'plug and play' option with the gear you already own IMO with a much lower learning curve to get hanging for your average camper as you need little if any specialty gear or tricks.
    At the end of the day you pretty much do what you're used to doing... laydown on your pad and go to sleep.

  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer003 View Post
    @BillyBob58. "With the possible exception of near the top edge of the hammocks, near the top center of the hammocks where the quilt tends to gap away(insulation not much needed there anyway, but I always wondered about cold air sinking in), the quilt is always in solid contact with all surfaces of the hammock that the body will contact. I have never really figured out if that top, side gap really contributes to decreasing performance. But I often take a thin piece of shock cord attached to a loop on the quilt and run it to a loop on the other side and pull that gap in, and that solves that issue anyway."

    I have been eyeballing this gap myself, but it has not been a perceptible issue yet, but I have only been down to 19 degrees so far. I think I will work up a little shock cord adjuster like you described and give it a whirl. What did you use to clip onto the UQ?

    Also: Do you run the side suspension cord into the slots at the end of the spreader bars, or do you just flop them over the top of the spreader bars? In one of the JRB videos, they showed the "flop over the bars" thing and it seems to be effective in bringing the UQ in tighter at the ends. It still has a small gap in the top center though.
    I have done it both ways, probably more often just flop it over. In fact, I have sometimes wondered if the Jacks got that idea from me, since before I ever saw that on one of their videos, I had been posting here about my techinique- with a short UQ- of crisscrossing the left corner suspension shock cord across the top and over to the left spreader bar ring. Like this pic from 2013 with my JRB convertible MW3 short section on a WBRR:


    That seemed to do a better job- usually- of dealing with the side gap. Quite a bit later I saw it on the Jacks site, but who knows, they may have already been suggesting that long before I did.

    Usually, I am not using a perimeter suspension like the Greylock has, my JRB suspensions connect to the corners of the UQ. So usually no need for a secondary suspension, no accordion effect. But, if I use my old Climashield WB Yeti, I put the suspension over the bars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer003 View Post
    @Just Bill. You had me laughing calling the BMBH "the coffin." I had never heard that, but just this weekend I took this picture (below) because it looked, and felt, like a coffin.

    Attachment 171806
    Ha! Definitely a coffin, especially with the deeper Deluxe or the original BMBH like I have. But, for some reason, I always feel like the TQ works better with that deep, narrow design.

    Also, I forgot to say in previous post: the bridge hammocks, especially with a pad pocket, have one more potential huge benefit in deep winter: they are- except for a 90* Hammock style, by far the most comfy and easiest to us with a pad, especially a CCF pad that doesn't raise the center of gravity much. So if I find myself coming up short in insulation power with the UQ, just slipping a torso sized section of CCF into the pad pocket buys me a lot more insulation, with little to no loss in comfort.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 01-21-2019 at 15:33.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Groundskeeper's Avatar
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    @BillyBob58. I haven't tried slipping a pad in yet. I'm still a little confused about the vapor barrier concept and where the condensation may form, despite reading many of your posts about it. I think part of my confusion is that I am unfamiliar with the Hennesy Super Shelter construction, so some of the terminology/ acronyms lose me. I have a Thermarest self inflating from my ground days. I guess I could go light on the inflation to keep the center of gravity about the same. I am also wondering how one of the Emergency Blankets would perform if I stuffed it into the sleeve, above the UQ.

  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer003 View Post
    @BillyBob58. I haven't tried slipping a pad in yet. I'm still a little confused about the vapor barrier concept and where the condensation may form, despite reading many of your posts about it. I think part of my confusion is that I am unfamiliar with the Hennesy Super Shelter construction, so some of the terminology/ acronyms lose me. I have a Thermarest self inflating from my ground days. I guess I could go light on the inflation to keep the center of gravity about the same. I am also wondering how one of the Emergency Blankets would perform if I stuffed it into the sleeve, above the UQ.
    Well, that is something worth trying! I know it would work great for me, but if it didn't for you, then just stop doing that. Both the space blanket, and most pads, placed in the pad pocket would act as a VB. If there is also an UQ underneath them, then they should be kept pretty warm. Thus, condensation should be minimal. At least it would for me, although if you actually over heat, you will sweat. But at east the sweat- or body vapor- can not get into your UQ.

    When you used that TR pad- a VB - on the ground, how did you do regarding sweat and condensation? But the trouble with a pad in a hammock is that one side of it is exposed to much colder temps ( air temps) than when on the ground. That can increase the odds of condensation. But if the pad ( or a space blanket or any VB) is kept warm by outer insulation, maybe not.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Groundskeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Well, that is something worth trying! I know it would work great for me, but if it didn't for you, then just stop doing that. Both the space blanket, and most pads, placed in the pad pocket would act as a VB. If there is also an UQ underneath them, then they should be kept pretty warm. Thus, condensation should be minimal. At least it would for me, although if you actually over heat, you will sweat. But at east the sweat- or body vapor- can not get into your UQ.

    When you used that TR pad- a VB - on the ground, how did you do regarding sweat and condensation? But the trouble with a pad in a hammock is that one side of it is exposed to much colder temps ( air temps) than when on the ground. That can increase the odds of condensation. But if the pad ( or a space blanket or any VB) is kept warm by outer insulation, maybe not.
    You're right, the best thing to do is just test it at my home testing grounds.

    Regarding the TR pad on the ground, as best as I can remember, it was usually a bit damp. I always assumed it was moisture from the ground.

  6. #16
    Senior Member sidneyhornblower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmen View Post
    ...which would be warmest option? I am thinking that I would be warmer in a gathered-end as it appears that I will be more enveloped in a pod of insulation.
    I'm glad this came up because I've been sleeping outside this month trying to figure that out. I'm reluctantly concluding that the gathered end offers more warmth using identical quilts. I'll point out that my bridge is from kitsapcowboy and so is not a commercial product with a purpose made UQ for it. I'm trying to fit my DIY full length Apex UQ and/or my AHE Jarbidge. The Jarbidge is a better fit but neither UQ by itself has worked all that well below 30.

    Just Bill makes some excellent points which I'll selectively quote below in order to comment on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post

    Generally- if all else is equal a bridge will sleep colder...

    ...very flat and cot like, with the center inverting slightly. This can make it easy for a gathered end quilt to form a small scoop at the center and trap a pool of cool air around your low back.


    ...That tiny finger of icy air creeping down your neck or along your calf is unnoticed in 3 seasons... but can ruin your night in winter.
    I've definitely found that the same quilt performs differently on my gathered end versus my bridge. Bill is spot on with the scoop at the center trapping cool air around your low back. This month I've had that happen several times. I've fought it by changing my attachment points for the UQ but the bottom line is that the bridge shape is different enough that the same quilt that works fine on the GE won't fit as well on the bridge. I don't have a bridge with an underquilt made specifically for it and so can't say whether that setup would work better. I just know that the same UQ won't get me to the lows in my bridge that it will in my GE.

    My best setup for my specific bridge has been: Jarbidge 3-season UQ with my DIY underquilt protector. I also used several small pads under me in the hammock to kill any cold spots on my back. Using that setup, I was comfy and warm at 27 the other night, minimal wind and no tarp. I believe it would go lower, but the weather hasn't cooperated with a colder night yet for testing.

    I'm about to go on a trip this weekend where temps are expected to be around 20 at night. I'm still dithering about whether to take the bridge or the gathered end. Based a lot on both Bill's observations and my own testing, I'm leaning towards the gathered end. It's hard to know without testing in cold weather. Bill is right that stuff that works at 40 will be found to be inadequate at 30 or below and no amount of testing in the fall will find the problems that will plague you in the winter.
    "...the height of hammock snobbery!"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer003 View Post
    You're right, the best thing to do is just test it at my home testing grounds.

    Regarding the TR pad on the ground, as best as I can remember, it was usually a bit damp. I always assumed it was moisture from the ground.
    Used to deal with this all the time when I worked at the north face year's ago... Folks would come in with their $400-$600+ tents and yell 'My Tent leaks!'

    I also see this happening with hammock folks regarding the mysterious sweating pad.

    A vapor barrier is simply that... think of a plastic bag. Reflectix, some CCF pads and your waterproof tent floor are all vapor barriers.

    On the ground... people assume that your body weight is smashing the tent floor into the damp ground and that's why you get condensation/moisture where you sleep.
    In truth you are getting condensation. All you need for condensation is a HUMIDITY differential. Condensation increases when there is a larger temperature differential but you don't always need the glass of icewater on a hot day. The room temperature mirror in your bathroom collects condensation just as effectively as your glass of water.

    The key part being the glass (vapor barrier). in truth every surface of your bathroom is forming condensation... but you probably don't see it as readily as it often forms within the vapor permeable wall cavity. (why we get mold in bathrooms). Your toilet 'sweats' as well... again usually due to the material surface. We don't think of our vanity or bathroom door sweating... but that's because they can absorb humidity and eventually they will rot.

    So your tent floor (or Vapor barrier) is where the condensation collects because it is a vapor barrier. Often from both sides. If it is above freezing... the ground and vegetation has moisture it's trying to evaporate as well... which traps against the underside of your tent in the same way it would if put a sheet of plastic on your lawn. Below freezing... you may be melting a little snow from your pad and get frost on the outside of your tent as a result when you get up and start to pack.

    A bigger temperature differential (the icewater on a hot day vs your room temperature mirror in the bathroom) only increases the effect...
    Since you are on your sleeping pad... that's the warmer side. The side in contact with the ground is cooler and the temp differential there encourages the condensation to form.

    In a hammock- two things are happening...
    Most of us agree an UQ is 'better'... and pads are a budget choice. As a result most pads are inexpensive like reflectix or a closed cell foam.
    Both of which are vapor barriers. A pure air pad (like a Neo-Air) is also a vapor barrier.

    On the body side of the pad-
    As a result you can easily trap any body vapor (sweat) between you and the pad. Since many sleeping on pads can't really move after they wrestle them into place and hammock hangers tend to sleep soundly in place... you're more likely to form a small pool of sweat than a ground dweller who tosses and turns (releasing the vapor). The hammock is also pressing the pad into you... forming it to your body and eliminating most if not all of the pathways for your body vapor to migrate away. So you're more likely to find your lower back or butt damp come morning than you would on the same pad used on the ground.

    On the outside of the pad-
    The hammock is not a vapor barrier, so any migrating moisture that does escape is hitting the fabric, especially since the pad is often inside the hammock itself.
    Without getting into evaporative cooling too much- with any bit of breeze and any scrap of moisture you will get a rapid cooling of the underside of your hammock.... increasing the temperature differential... increasing the likely hood condensation will form... increasing the condensation... increasing evaporative cooling and on you go to the soggy bottom blues.

    Underquilts are not vapor barriers- nor do they present a 'hard surface' for condensation or temperature differential. They operate on a gradient in that there is a gradual transition for both temperature and moisture content to dissipate.

    So long story short...
    Putting the pad within the bridge and protected by an UQ will solve the outside of the pad problems as BillyBob is suggesting.
    By using that pad in a bridge... you're more likely to shift positions slightly during the night and vent a bit of that body vapor trapped between you and your pad.
    So if you understand their use... a pad can be very effective insulation in combination with your UQ. Especially a reflective faced z-rest or ridgerest style pad (rather than a space blanket).

    One of the best winter bridges I saw was built by Grizz and used far less insulation than one might think by taking advantage of this type of system.

    Stacking pads can also do the same job if you understand your foams and have some density transitions... I just think this method is too bulky to be practical.

  8. #18
    Senior Member TrailSlug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmen View Post
    For 3 season I use bridge for comfort and being able to sleep on side.

    For this winter I was hoping to get your opinions - I have a 0-degree UQ for my Ridgerunner (w/ Spindrift) as well as a 0-degree UQ for Blackbird XLC - which would be warmest option? I am thinking that I would be warmer in a gathered-end as it appears that I will be more enveloped in a pod of insulation.

    Thanks for your opinions!
    I know I stay a lot warmer in my Warbonnet Ridgerunner than I do a gathered end due to the movement of the underquilt on the gathered end hammock. The bride hammock under quit stays in place no matter what you do and this to me end up being a much warmer solution.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidneyhornblower View Post
    Apex
    There are many reasons I do not like Apex much beyond summer I've shared before... including the simple fact that as you approach zero the CLO insulation formula breaks down.

    The practical application relevant here though is the brillo pad/steelwool type feel Apex has inherent to it's structure. With fabric you call it 'poor drape'... most of us would just call it stiff.

    Point being... Apex has a harder time conforming to complex shapes. So unless you had a very carefully built, shaped and differential stacked quilt you're going to struggle with it fitting a bridge period.

    I don't think you should work with layers heavier than 3.6 ounces... simply because multiple thin layers will conform better than one or two thick ones... but people do it.
    There are also some reasons (including density variation within the batts) why you wouldn't get the same value out of a thicker layer as you would out of two separate batts of the same weight.
    People stack two layers of 5 ounce and call it a zero... but one of the few folks who makes Apex quilts full time built them with 5 layers of 2 ounce... and discontinued them as they also realized the math didn't work out in real life. They no longer sell Apex rated lower than 20*.

    My 'Apex Bias' is pretty well known... so apply salt liberally.
    Many use apex and it is a good budget insulation. It's also easy to use for DIY... so I get the appeal.

    I just try to point out that while it may not truly be a square peg... it is at best an octagon you're trying to pound into a round hole when using apex in cold temps or complicated shapes.

    A lot of stuff 'works okay' and if using apex or staying home is the choice then Apex is the best insulation ever.
    Though you probably should switch over to a loft chart around 20* and abandon the CLO formulas if you're making an honest attempt at building true winter gear with Apex.

    Fer my part I figure I don't need to wait until you beat yourself unconscious to point out that banging your head against that particular wall will produce a predictable result.

  10. #20
    Member wvumountaineer52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peppy View Post
    I use a bridge most of the time (towns end medium). I've had plenty of colder nights in it, but honestly feel like I'm usually a little warmer in a gathered end. I think it's because the UQ wraps around you more.
    Agreed!

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