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  1. #21
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    Has anyone ever used or heard of this stuff being used from Dutchware?

    Dutchwaregear.com/product/up-insulation-3-oz/

    RedKyte

  2. #22
    Senior Member hutzelbein's Avatar
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    Are there any members who are mountaineers? I'm not a mountaineer and have no plans of becoming one, but I like to read mountaineering stories. I have always wondered why those climbing high mountains in temperatures so low I cannot even imagine seem to exclusively use down insulation if down really is this susceptible to humidity? After all, climbing a 7,000 or 8,000 m mountain often seems to take weeks, and their lives depend on their insulation working well enough.

    I have lived in Yorkshire, UK, for half a year, and in Dublin, Ireland, for more than 6 years, and I haven't seen any conditions between March and October where I wouldn't take my down quilts . The US East Coast had much higher humidity in the 3 summer months I visited there. However, I'm not a winter camper, and I have yet to hike and camp for more than 6 consecutive nights.

    For what it's worth, I thought that the double-bag approach sounds sensible. This would probably the route I would take if I were planning a long distance hike in low temperatures.

  3. #23
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hutzelbein View Post
    Are there any members who are mountaineers? I'm not a mountaineer and have no plans of becoming one, but I like to read mountaineering stories. I have always wondered why those climbing high mountains in temperatures so low I cannot even imagine seem to exclusively use down insulation if down really is this susceptible to humidity? After all, climbing a 7,000 or 8,000 m mountain often seems to take weeks, and their lives depend on their insulation working well enough.

    I have lived in Yorkshire, UK, for half a year, and in Dublin, Ireland, for more than 6 years, and I haven't seen any conditions between March and October where I wouldn't take my down quilts . The US East Coast had much higher humidity in the 3 summer months I visited there. However, I'm not a winter camper, and I have yet to hike and camp for more than 6 consecutive nights.

    For what it's worth, I thought that the double-bag approach sounds sensible. This would probably the route I would take if I were planning a long distance hike in low temperatures.
    Humidity decreases with altitude. So I would imagine that humidity does not play a huge factor for mountaineers- which is why down insulation still works well for them.

  4. #24
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hutzelbein View Post
    Are there any members who are mountaineers? I'm not a mountaineer and have no plans of becoming one, but I like to read mountaineering stories. I have always wondered why those climbing high mountains in temperatures so low I cannot even imagine seem to exclusively use down insulation if down really is this susceptible to humidity? After all, climbing a 7,000 or 8,000 m mountain often seems to take weeks, and their lives depend on their insulation working well enough.

    I have lived in Yorkshire, UK, for half a year, and in Dublin, Ireland, for more than 6 years, and I haven't seen any conditions between March and October where I wouldn't take my down quilts . The US East Coast had much higher humidity in the 3 summer months I visited there. However, I'm not a winter camper, and I have yet to hike and camp for more than 6 consecutive nights.

    For what it's worth, I thought that the double-bag approach sounds sensible. This would probably the route I would take if I were planning a long distance hike in low temperatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by rweb82 View Post
    Humidity decreases with altitude. So I would imagine that humidity does not play a huge factor for mountaineers- which is why down insulation still works well for them.
    I am an ex mountaineer, but not on the level Hulzelbein is asking about. And not all mountaineers use down in all conditions. Although when I took my Wind River Mountaineering course with NOLS in June 85, of the 3 actual true blue climbers, the guy who was the head instructor went on later to Climb Everest. So the instructors were true mountaineers. No down or cotton was allowed on that course. They felt that- sure- most of the time you would get away with it, but sooner or later, it was going to be a serious problem for guys like them who were out for a long time and could not jut bail and get back to the car within a day or so.

    However, I believe they did allow down on their winter mountaineering courses, where temps were virtually guaranteed to stay way below freezing, so any moisture coming in was not going to be liquid, and temps occasionally actually reached minus 40F. So condensation was a far greater threat than precipitation. And they might have even been know to use VBs to do away with any threat from condensation or sweat, at least while sleeping.

    Here is their current gear list for Himalaya Mountaineering:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...f95uI_DlY/edit
    Himalaya Mountaineering

    A warm, synthetic-filled jacket that fits over your base layers. (Examples: Mountain Hardwear Compressor, Patagonia Nano Puff Hoody)



    We recommend synthetic-insulated bags, approximately rated to 0°F. Due to the wet conditions sometimes encountered in the Himalayas, down or feather-filled bags are not recommended.
    Here is their gear list for Winter Educator, which takes place in the Tetons. I notice here they do allow some down. But, there is plenty of wool/synthetic to be layered with it. Also, this course is not a month + long, about 3 weeks, and I am not sure they are spending the entire time sleeping outdoors, they spend some of it at a ski resort. When they are in the wilderness, they are sleeping in snow caves :
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...aqtJGZr6E/edit


    Required Items
    Synthetic or wool T-shirt
    X
    $29
    No cotton.
    Mid-weight top
    X
    $43-50
    Light or mid-weight base layer made of polypropylene, Capilene, or wool.
    Expedition weight top
    X
    $69-85
    Expedition-weight top such as Patagonia R1, lightweight fleece or a wool sweater/hoody.
    Vest
    $10
    $35-50
    Fleece, down or synthetic-filled vest.
    Fleece/Insulated jacket
    $10
    $50-75
    Thick fleece, Polartec, Primaloft, Patagonia R2 or a lightweight down jacket.
    Wind Shirt
    $12
    $55
    Lightweight, breathable nylon wind shell is great for for times when you’re very active.
    Insulated Parka
    $35
    $210
    Synthetic or down fill winter parka with a hood. Must fit comfortably over all your upper body layers. This is a really warm jacket for around camp. We suggest you rent one from us if you don’t already have one.


    Expedition weight bottoms
    X
    $35-65
    Expedition-weight bottoms such as Patagonia R1 or wool.
    soft shell or Gore-tex pants
    X
    X
    Gore-Tex or soft shell pants without insulation are the preferred option.
    Insulated pants
    $25
    $125
    Synthetic-fill ski warm-up pants that fit comfortably over all your lower body layers.
    Underwear
    X
    X
    Silk, synthetic, wool or none. We recommend women bring 2-3 pr. Men can bring synthetic underwear or just wear long underwear.


    Required Items
    Sleeping bag
    $45
    $200-250
    We rent synthetic-filled bags, as they are easier to care for. You need a bag rated to -15F to -20F at a minimum. Down and synthetic are both effective in the winter, although down can be more challenging to care for. A sleeping bag is an essential piece of safety gear. Instructors will exercise their judgment when evaluating your sleeping bag.
    Anyone up for a semester in Patagonia? Whooohooo! :
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1..._sdFJ-f24/edit

    Insulated overpants
    X
    $206
    A great way to stay warm in camp at the beginning and end of long days in the mountains. Can also provide versatility for cold sleepers. We recommend overpants with full side zips to have the ability to put on and take off over boots and crampons. Down is not acceptable. Highly recommended for fall SSPM and PY courses. NOLS Patagonia carries Montbell TEC Thermowrap Pants.


    Required Items
    Sleeping bag
    $90
    X
    We require a 0°F/18°C synthetic fill mummy bag (Polarguard, Thermic Micro, etc.). Down bags are not acceptable. NOLS Patagonia rents Sierra Design Centari 5F sleeping bags.
    Or just a semester right here in the good old Rockies:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...579IFfge8/edit
    Spring Semester in the Rockies
    Equipment List



    Upper Body Clothing
    We layer our clothing, combining different garments to achieve optimum insulation and protection from wind, rain, and snow. We use either synthetic or wool fibers, both of which insulate when wet; merino wool products are increasingly popular. We avoid cotton, which is poor insulation when wet. It is common to need three insulating layers.

    .......................


    Required Items
    Base layer (long underwear)
    X
    $50-75
    Mid-weight long underwear top, wool or synthetic (e.g. Patagonia Capilene series)
    Middle layer (fleece jacket)
    X
    $50-75
    Fleece jacket (e.g. Patagonia Regulator series) or a wool sweater
    Top layer (synthetic jacket)
    X
    $165-250
    A warm, synthetic-fill “puffy” jacket that fits over your base layers (e.g. Mountain Hardwear Compressor, Montbell Thermawrap, Patagonia Nano Puff).
    Wind shirt/anorak
    $25
    $55-100
    A lightweight, breathable, durable nylon wind shell, in either pullover or parka style
    Rain jacket
    X
    $100-150
    A sturdy waterproof jacket with a hood. Both coated nylon and breathable fabrics are acceptable (e.g. Gore-Tex, Marmot Precip, Mountain Hardwear Dry.Q, Patagonia H2No)
    T-shirt
    X
    $25-50
    A lightweight synthetic or wool t-shirt

    .................................................. .....


    Sleeping Gear
    Equipment
    Rent
    Buy
    Notes
    Required Items
    Sleeping bag
    $60
    $220-350
    Synthetic-fill bags (e.g. Quallofil, Hollofil, Polarguard, etc.) perform well in the variety of conditions we encounter on courses. A bag with approximately 3 pounds of fill, rated to 5° or 10°F. Fall and spring students will also need a separate bag for winter conditions (synthetic filled bag rated to -15°F).




  5. #25
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    There's a lot of institutional experience in them thar lists!
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  6. #26
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
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    I went out for a quick overnighter last weekend and stayed by a lake. Zero wind. And I was a few hundred yards away from the steep ~150' ridge I came down. Throw in a 52° sunny day falling to 34° overnight and say hello to the condensation!

    I had to put a bandana over my face halfway thru the night to keep the TQ dry. But I still had a decent amount of dampness over the entire quilt and a lot by the foot end. Luckily I was just packing up and heading home. If I were staying another night I would have had to stop early and give them a chance to dry out. When I was packing them they took up like half the space!

  7. #27
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    There's a lot of institutional experience in them thar lists!
    You know, there really is. These are people who have seen stuff go bad, even if it usually doesn't. I am wondering if they will be switching more to treated down?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    I went out for a quick overnighter last weekend and stayed by a lake. Zero wind. And I was a few hundred yards away from the steep ~150' ridge I came down. Throw in a 52° sunny day falling to 34° overnight and say hello to the condensation!

    I had to put a bandana over my face halfway thru the night to keep the TQ dry. But I still had a decent amount of dampness over the entire quilt and a lot by the foot end. Luckily I was just packing up and heading home. If I were staying another night I would have had to stop early and give them a chance to dry out. When I was packing them they took up like half the space!
    If you had needed to pack up and continue the hike for a few more days, that is when you would be glad to see some sunshine for drying out! Plus, if you re like me, I just hate packing up a down quilt with wet shells. Unless your down is treated, then maybe not as important? Again, I keep seeing mixed opinions on that, with some actually preferring standard down(some including companies that have switched back). Or even still preferring synthetic if moisture is a big risk.

    Also, you know when condensation really stinks? When it happens inside your shell and freezes to ice. There is a guy who used to post here (Callofthewild? Cryofthewild?) who was always out in the dead of Michigan winter in a basic HHSS and a Marmot 15F bag + slept in plenty of warm layered clothes. Tough as nails. he always seemed to do OK 20+ below zero and in horrific wind, but he reported ice inside his sleeping bag. Somehow, I don't think even treated down is going to do well with ice in the feathers. I was never able to convince him that he was a prime candidate for VBs. He preferred just dealing with the ice in his bag. He woldn't even place the space blanket on top of the HH pad, but rather under it! He also got ice on his HH pad because of that refusal to use the space blanket on top, but would just shake it all out the next morning.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 01-08-2019 at 14:34.

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