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  1. #21
    Senior Member fallkniven's Avatar
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    Slippage isnt due to your prusik. That hitch is just to keep tension on the other end. (Prusik needs to be made out of a spliced loop, cant tie that with amsteel) 9" is too short for your bury. I tried going short on mine but kept slipping until I got up to a 12-13" finished bury. Has worked fine since for the past 8 years.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Pine Barrens Leather

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    The safety steps with ucrs, IMHO, are adequate bury length, keeping some kind of tension in end opposite the constrictor end and some sort of stopper in the event the constrictor does slip, or fail... in that order. We've covered them all above I think.
    This is an old thread, but I suspect my idea might be worth reviving it. As far as I can tell, it is new, but if you already saw it somewhere, please tell me, so I could credit the person.

    @MikekiM mentioned stopper, which is either whipping of the bury or an additional constrictor knot (prusik, Klemheist, ...). I haven't used UCR's in the field, and I have no idea whether stoppers are essential for guylines, given the bury is of sufficient length, but I'd like to propose another possible take on them.

    In the following photos you can see UCR (1.7 mm, generic UHMWPE, 8 strands) on a guyline (2 mm, 70% PP / 30% PE). After the main constrictor part (2" long), I made an additional small constrictor part (3/4" long), just 3/8" (1 cm) down the line. This time, I led the guyline through the opposite side (width-wise) of the rope, thinking that this "half-twist" would stiffen the "loose" part of the UCR, which I thought might help. Without additional testing (I can't promise I'll do that), I can't claim it does, and it is possible that one could go through from the same side, with the same effect.

    Without the additional small bury, that two inch bury would usually slip if I'd pull as hard as I could. When I installed the small bury, it wouldn't budge. Admittedly, it is possible that the single 2.75" bury wouldn't budge either, but I suspect that separating it into two parts is introducing that much needed tension on the main bury. Btw. the whole thing is 3" long, and I think one could go even shorter. Have fun playing with it.


    IMG-1066.jpgIMG-1067.jpgIMG-1068.jpg
    Last edited by Mortus; 06-14-2021 at 10:02.

  3. #23
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    Phantom quick fix for UCR fail while camping.
    Adjust UCR allowing for some shortening to reach correct length suspension.

    After milking bury, form a marlin spike hitch in middle of bury. Insert Strong crushproof toggle in marlin spike hitch. Milk bury again one more time, just in case it was jostled loose when you tied MSH. Apply a strong grip and tighten entire suspension on both sides of bury and marlin spike hitch.

    The shortening will happen, because the marlin spike hitch will reduce length of suspension.

  4. #24
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    hey Mortus, and welcome to the forum, nice to see more hammocking innovation on this side of the pond, too.

    your idea is interesting, but i feel it won't add that much grip compared to an straight bury of the same total length (as you yourself suspect).

    i've been playing a lot with UCR for suspension, and being on this side of the puddle, i had to source some different dyneema rope than most people on the forum use, which happens to be much more loosely braided (which is both a blessing and a curse), so i had to experiment a lot and find the best way to deal with slippage. after many experiments, hitches and various "innovative solutions", i ended up returning to one of my first ideas, which worked perfectly from the start. i had discarded it as an "emergency solution" at the time, as it is not "pure enough" (TM). you'll see in a sec why.

    i've mentioned this in a few other threads (once my testing is done, i'll write it up properly), but basically Phantom has the right idea, although the marlin spike hitch is a bit of a sledgehammer for this nut i think: it turns out all you need to do to tremendously increase friction on a bury is to bend the rope somehow. you don't need to bend it much either (that's why i say MSH is a sledge hammer: it will work perfectly, but according to my experiments, not needed). bending it "just little" means you retain full strength, and place minimal strain on the rigid object. all you need is a rigid object shaped so you can wrap the bury around or through, just loosely (no sharp turns), and that won't _completely_ collapse under the load (if it bends a bit but doesn't completely fail, that's good enough). for instance, an S binner which is small enough so that the rope will be forced to bend a little bit going through it will do, or a normal binner, clipped around the line twice, so it forms a long spiral (this will not just work, it's already overkill and imho too much strain on the rope for the purpose, but it will work in a pinch). as you can see, doing it with "found" objects is not pretty (hence my initial disgust with such heresy ), but i am now in the process of testing some custom made objects to use for this that won't be so offensive. it's still rigid objects, so i guess it qualifies as hardware, but in this case i've come to the conclusion it is really worth it, it is the best solution for the job (yes, i've tried the most wonderful friction hitches in various materials, it can be made to work, but the elegant solution in this case is a rigid object. there, i said it).

    the nice thing about it is that the object in question does not need to be strong, it just needs to have some rigidity, and very little strength to withstand the tiny fraction of line tension which will be imparted to it (if used correctly as i describe, we're talking under 1/10 of line tension -- i have actually even tested, the other day, with a very crappy keychain carabinner, made of the softest aluminium know to man, i suspect some advanced alloy of aluminium and apple pie, on my 3mm dyneema suspension, under my load multiplied by a flat hang angle, it bent quite spectacularly, but there it stayed). the even nicer thing is that if this object were to indeed fail completely, there will be no failure of the suspension anyway (it is non-critical), and no significant shock load on failure (as the shortening of the line this object imparts through the bends it forces is very very small), and if it fails "late enough", the slippage will be stopped that one time too. it also means you don't need to account for any significant shortening as you would with an MSH. in fact, using the purpose made objects (sigh: yes, hardware, bling. it is that) which i'm working on right now, you wouldn't even need to remove them from the line at all.

    the main problem with using found objects is that you'd need them to have some shape that will mean they stay on the line even when the line is loaded, instead of pop off. an open S shape for instance can work great for that, but many others too. once you've experimented a bit and got the hang of how it works, you could easily pick up a stick from the ground in the field, if you needed to, and with a knife carve it enough so it will do the job (impress your friends, save the day, sort of thing)

    i still need a few days for the "official release", but in the meantime i'll take a pic of the tortured binner mentioned above, for your amusement (if you haven't guessed, i hate these useless tiny key chain carabinners, which can only be used for the purpose of losing your keys)

    edit: here's some pics of the abused sugar-cane-allu carabinner. for entertainment and to demonstrate the principle, as otherwise it is, of course, way too ugly

    IMG_20210614_200105.jpg-ucr-binner-small.jpg
    (the VT hitch is completely redundant in this configuration, i keep it only as a slippage witness -- none detected so far)

    IMG_20210614_200245.jpg-ucr-binner-small.jpg
    makes me grin every time i see how it bent

    IMG_20210614_200226.jpg-ucr-binner-small.jpg

    one must take care if using this "wrap" method (though i don't think it's the best method, it's true it will stop **** near anything from slipping, so it has that going for it, very aggresive): as this is a spiral, it is a 3d bend, and it has "chirality" (is that the word?), once the aluminium bent on first use, one must take care to wrap the line in the same way for subsequent uses, otherwise the spirals won't match, and a new bend will be induced (and i suspect the aluminium will fail, in this case, quite easily, due to work hardening/fatigue). re-using it while keeping the chirality of the twist has been no problem so far though, and i suspect it would never fail

    if using a thicker binner than this, or made of something that's not 38% caramelized sugar, the metal will not bend at all, and that's not nice: the line would be way too overstressed imho (i mean more than it needs to be, this particular one i'm using is rated for 950daN, so about 950kgf, or just shy of 2100lbs force, and the bend radius, even with a non-bending binner, is at least 5 times the line diameter by my estimation, so i expect little if any derating of the line; hope i'll be able to test that some day soon though)
    Last edited by nanok; 06-14-2021 at 13:44.

  5. #25
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    If all it takes is bending the bury, then after milking bury, wrap bury around one side of carabiner 3 times the last wrap leapfrogged over first wrap so wraps won’t elongate and so that last wrap squeezes the first wrap.

    The above is trying to describe a method that has previously been shown on Hammock Forums as a part of a hammock suspension. Also it has been used to shorten hammock ridgelines. I saw photos on the Forums.

    Now for no hardware
    Milk bury of UCR, form into marlin spike hitch, your toggle can be the extra loose end of amsteel hanging down from bury.
    Since that extra loose end is doing nothing but hanging there—put it to work, by folding it back and forth in hand width accordion folds! Then insert that wadded up handful of folds into marlin spike hitch as your toggle!
    Hand tighten and hang at your own risk, since I’m using you as my human guinea pig!

    We are doing this for Science
    HahahaLOL

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    If all it takes is bending the bury, then after milking bury, wrap bury around one side of carabiner 3 times the last wrap leapfrogged over first wrap so wraps won’t elongate and so that last wrap squeezes the first wrap.

    The above is trying to describe a method that has previously been shown on Hammock Forums as a part of a hammock suspension. Also it has been used to shorten hammock ridgelines. I saw photos on the Forums.
    see above, i just added pics: what i meant is actually just 2 wraps, might seem surprising but it does work, it is in fact much more than needed already (according to my tests)

    it might be possible to quite dramatically shorten the needed length of bury with this method (even just two wraps as shown above), but i will not suggest that until i manage to build a rig to pull these things to failure: testing such thing with body weight is imho inadequate, i'm using 950daN rated line to get at least 80 (hopefully 90+) % of that, with the safety factor that entails. if i get 10% it will look fine when testing with my own weight, so not a valid test. but i digress.

    if you have the thread link or title handy, i'd be very curious, sounds interesting (i think i know the method you describe, but i haven't seen it mention on here yet)


    Now for no hardware
    Milk bury of UCR, form into marlin spike hitch, your toggle can be the extra loose end of amsteel hanging down from bury.
    Since that extra loose end is doing nothing but hanging there—put it to work, by folding it back and forth in hand width accordion folds! Then insert that wadded up handful of folds into marlin spike hitch as your toggle!
    Hand tighten and hang at your own risk, since I’m using you as my human guinea pig!
    hmm. this would require some testing. i'd be worried that, with enough load, the makeshift "soft toggle" would collapse in the MSH, and you'd endup with a tangled mess. the other problem i see at first glance is that the amount of tail left will depend on the hang (that's the point of the ucr), so it's something which would likely only work for "short hangs" anyway.

    We are doing this for Science
    HahahaLOL
    we should add it to the FAQ for new forum members: "welcome to the forum. first of all, get a matress. no, seriously, a thick one. now, if you'll try anything suggested here, make sure it's above said matress. have fun"

  7. #27
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    Hi, nanok. Sorry for the late reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    your idea is interesting, but i feel it won't add that much grip compared to an straight bury of the same total length (as you yourself suspect).
    I wasn't aiming at increasing the grip. The role of the second bury is to introduce just enough tension to the end of the first bury, so the slippage could be prevented. I can't prove that, but I suspect that the tension of the second bury is not nearly enough to cause its slippage, given the first bury is of the the proper length.
    If it proves to be applicable in real life scenarios, it would be a simple, and permanent solution that's easy to implement at the time of UCR creation. No need for whipping the end of UCR, or for the bling, knots, or back splicing the small loop (as in the Caterpillar UCR). Although I appreciate the clean look of the last one, I haven't tried it.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your solution.

    Phantom Grapler, MSH might work, but it would require a loose end that's too long for my taste, and it doesn't sound like a permanent solution.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortus View Post
    Hi, nanok. Sorry for the late reply.



    I wasn't aiming at increasing the grip. The role of the second bury is to introduce just enough tension to the end of the first bury, so the slippage could be prevented. I can't prove that, but I suspect that the tension of the second bury is not nearly enough to cause its slippage, given the first bury is of the the proper length.
    thanks for the explanation, i do understand your thinking (it was very clear to me from your first post), i just took the "shortcut" of expressing it as "more grip", sorry about that.

    the "problem" i have with this is that i can't see how it would be better (or different, for that matter) than extending the main bury by just as much as your second bury is, but i might be missing something. and i'll be honest with you: i wish i was wrong, your solution looks so nice and clean, it's what i've been looking for and couldn't find. but i'm really afraid, at least for the dyneema rope i'm using, that it would not help

    If it proves to be applicable in real life scenarios, it would be a simple, and permanent solution that's easy to implement at the time of UCR creation. No need for whipping the end of UCR, or for the bling, knots, (...)
    i couldn't agree more with you, it is superb if it could be made to work. i'm not exagerating, when i first saw your pic my immediate thought was "oh, please, tell me this works".

    in my pic with the tortured keychain carabiner, you can hopefully see why my test material here is in another league of "oooh, we have a slippage problem" : look at your pic and mine, and notice the angle of the threads (or the number of crossings of threads you can see per one line diameter length), in my pic you can see how much "straighter" the threads are, this equates among other things to a stronger rope for the same weight per meter, a very easy to splice rope (very loose braiding), but it also means very little "squeeze" extracted form the tension of the rope (so if with something like the samson amsteel you get 5% of line load applied as squeeze, with this one you get 2% -- i'm pulling these numbers out of my rear extremity of course, i have no such measurements, but just to illustrate the point).

    or back splicing the small loop (as in the Caterpillar UCR). Although I appreciate the clean look of the last one, I haven't tried it.
    heh, thanks for the link, i hadn't seen this one. it's a nice way of rigging a tarp ridgeline, but i think i still like my solution (with the uni-shackle and one handed operation provided by the blake hitch and the tending loop), just for ease of use and compactness. this is pretty though, can't argue.

    backsplicing the "tail" of the ucr to create a loop is one of the best solutions i found not involving hardware: i form that loop into a VT, and it does work to prevent the slippage, and looks nice and clean, but it's a little bit too complicated for some beginner hangers (now you have to milk the bury, and a VT), so i was looking for something simpler to operate, even if it "offends" my desire to do away with rigid objects


    I'm looking forward to seeing your solution.
    the initial tests are a "partial failure", i'll need a bit more time i'm afraid. the solution works perfectly, the only failure is in my ability to manufacture objects which are rigid enough for the purpose, while also small, light, and good looking (yeah, i know..)

    i'll take another pic with a better proof of concept than the tortured carabinner in a few min, which will more clearly illustrate the solution, and hopefully enable you (and others) to play with it on your side if you find it interesting.

    Phantom Grapler, MSH might work, but it would require a loose end that's too long for my taste, and it doesn't sound like a permanent solution.
    phantom i think means making an MSH out of the bury itself (much in the way i wrap the bury around that carabinner, but much more aggresive), not out of the tail. this will definitely work (hell, this will not slip with a 5cm bury i bet), but it is cumbersome, and will also weaken the whole thing significantly. it can be a handy trick to have in a pinch (as a temporary solution), which is i think exactly what Phantom meant.

    basically, my idea is such: forget about pulling on the tail, you don't need the tail at all (well, you need it to be long enough to secure the braid from unravelling, but you understand), the tail remains free, instead, just force part of the bury (ideally towards the free tail) to bend around a rigid object, that deflection will locally increase the friction at the end of the bury which is normally unloaded, so now when the whole system is loaded, the rest of the bury will tighten up nicely and take up most of the load, because the bent part towards the tail won't let the rest of the bury slide, but instead force it to tighten. this works so well that you can get away with not even properly milking the bury (although i try to avoid that): it will kind of milk itself when you load it.

    to quickly test the concept, compress an unloaded ucr in your hand, you know now it will slide freely. now without milking it, wrap it half way around your hand, and try to slide it again, it will probably still slide, but it will be much less free. the same effect works even better when the whole thing is loaded as opposed to loosely in your hand.

    edit (pics).

    so here it is with an s-hook. this is just a rather thick piece of steel that's bent into an s shape, one side of the s being nearly closed, it's ugly as sin and heavy as sisiffus load, but it is definitely rigid (it came with a ticket to the moon hammock which i bought long time ago when i first started with hammocks -- we all make mistakes at the beginning)

    as you can see, the "far" end of the ucr (the unloaded end so to speak) just goes through it with minimal possible bend, no twisting or knotting, in fact if unloaded the s-hook will slide freely if nothing stops it. this is enough to stop any slipping of this ucr in all my testing so far, the only testing for now has been my own weight with very shallow hang angles and pulling on the ridgeline to make it even more shallow (so overloaded suspension basically, but i would expect not more than 2-3 times my weight, so under 200kg). for comparison, without the s-hook, this ucr will slide at very minimal load i don't evne get to really load the hammock fully, it's more like sitting on the ground with some delay. the bury on this ucr is more than 100x line diameters (just to give you an idea how slippy this liros braid is). the line is declared to be 3mm, the s-hook is 6.12mm according to my callipers (just for scale)

    IMG_20210623_195923.jpg-ucr-shook-small.jpg

    IMG_20210623_200040.jpg-ucr-shook-small.jpg
    Last edited by nanok; 06-23-2021 at 13:22. Reason: add promised pics

  9. #29
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    Prevent UCR Slippage

    My second paragraph in post number 6, is my best idea. That 1/8 amsteel spliced inside of 7/64 amsteel holds like a dog on a ham.

    It will look like a regular UCR, the 1/8 inner bury barely noticeable. And no extra work. It puts the squeeze and the brakes on your UCR.
    Outer bury is 7/64 amsteel.
    Try it and post your results

    Phantom GarnaUtees it!

    Oh it will “weaken the rope”
    Don’t be a scaredy cat

    Don’t skimp on the bury. (All UCRs)
    1/8 inside 7/64 will shorten bury, just make bury long enough to be secure
    Last edited by Phantom Grappler; 06-23-2021 at 17:11.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    My second paragraph in post number 6, is my best idea. That 1/8 amsteel spliced inside of 7/64 amsteel holds like a dog on a ham.

    It will look like a regular UCR, the 1/8 inner bury barely noticeable. And no extra work. It puts the squeeze and the brakes on your UCR.
    Outer bury is 7/64 amsteel.
    Try it and post your results

    Phantom GarnaUtees it!

    Oh it will “weaken the rope”
    Don’t be a scaredy cat
    hah, wait. you just made me realize: in fact, combined with Mortus' idea, it might be possible to both have the cake and eat it:

    you have one main bury which is the "honest" one (same diameter), and then a short bury, made of significantly smaller line, which is spliced on the tail of the actual UCR. so, basically, Mortus' second bury would be made of smaller diameter line

    this way one might be able to get this to work, keep it compact and clean, and not lose any strength (as this second bury should never have to withstand anything but a small fraction of the load.

    edit: okay, i just tried it quickly: main line my usual 3mm liros, smaller line was 2.2mm stein throw line (quite a bit smaller, and tighter braid). with the second bury half of the main one (so quite long in fact, shorter was not very useful), it seems to kind of work, but it is not reliable.

    at first glance, for my purposes, this doesn't work well enough: it lengthens the overall bury by 50% (which i'd rather avoid if possible), and is not as reliable as the rigid object bend i describe above. for some purposes though, it might make sense, as it is cleaner looking and completely "soft" (no hardware or even hard knots needed).
    Last edited by nanok; 06-23-2021 at 16:15.

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