More quilts or more clothes?

[sidneyhornblower]

When your usual winter system suddenly doesnt keep you warm because of a drop in temps, what are you inclinded to do? Double up on your quilts? Or add more clothing to sleep in?

I'm following this thread with interest because it's been on my mind a lot. In the past I've been of the "add quilt layers" school but reading the above posts by psyculman, cmoulder and especially the excellent tutorial by TxAggie has me rethinking my gear choices. There's a lot of good sense in taking extra clothing layers rather than extra quilt layers and I may give that a try, mainly because I already own more clothes than quilts, so with limited funds, the solution can't always be to buy another piece of gear.

In the past, I've carried some combination of any or all of the following:
- a cheap fleece blanket. I've chopped a hole in it and can wear it serape style, wrap it around my feet inside the footbox, lie on it in the hammock, wear it in the hammock, or drape it over the top quilt.
- a poncho liner. Can be lain upon for extra bottom insulation or draped for top insulation, or my favorite, used as an impromptu pod system around the whole shebang
- a 2' by 3' quilt. I had extra materials left over from my RBTR full length underquilt kit and used it to make a small throw. I've stuffed it under me or layered it over me in the hammock.

Along with taking some version of a small pad with me, other items that help a lot include a wool balaclava, and new for me this year: wool mittens and insulated booties. I've been using the booties this week in backyard testing and love 'em. What I don't like about my current choices bulleted above is the bulk, especially the poncho liner. Sleeping out this past week my issues have not been an overall coldness, but rather spots of cool that wake me up, like one leg or the middle of my back. I wonder if extra clothing might be a better choice for killing those cold spots rather than extra quilt layers? I can easily tote enough stuff into my back yard to stay warm, but selecting a subset of that stuff to fit in the pack is the issue. Clothing might pack down better than fleece quilts or poncho liners for me. I'll read with interest any other thoughts in this thread.

[BillyBob58]

I'm following this thread with interest because it's been on my mind a lot. In the past I've been of the "add quilt layers" school but reading the above posts by psyculman, cmoulder and especially the excellent tutorial by TxAggie has me rethinking my gear choices. There's a lot of good sense in taking extra clothing layers rather than extra quilt layers and I may give that a try, mainly because I already own more clothes than quilts, so with limited funds, the solution can't always be to buy another piece of gear.

In the past, I've carried some combination of any or all of the following:
- a cheap fleece blanket. I've chopped a hole in it and can wear it serape style, wrap it around my feet inside the footbox, lie on it in the hammock, wear it in the hammock, or drape it over the top quilt.
- a poncho liner. Can be lain upon for extra bottom insulation or draped for top insulation, or my favorite, used as an impromptu pod system around the whole shebang
- a 2' by 3' quilt. I had extra materials left over from my RBTR full length underquilt kit and used it to make a small throw. I've stuffed it under me or layered it over me in the hammock.

Along with taking some version of a small pad with me, other items that help a lot include a wool balaclava, and new for me this year: wool mittens and insulated booties. I've been using the booties this week in backyard testing and love 'em. What I don't like about my current choices bulleted above is the bulk, especially the poncho liner. Sleeping out this past week my issues have not been an overall coldness, but rather spots of cool that wake me up, like one leg or the middle of my back. I wonder if extra clothing might be a better choice for killing those cold spots rather than extra quilt layers? I can easily tote enough stuff into my back yard to stay warm, but selecting a subset of that stuff to fit in the pack is the issue. Clothing might pack down better than fleece quilts or poncho liners for me. I'll read with interest any other thoughts in this thread.

So far at least, the thing about layering clothes, for me, is that it is mostly items I already have with me to stay warm around camp or while hiking. So, in my case, can't say it has ever really added much bulk or weight. For example, with my Speer Pea Pod, used on a trip where it was plenty warm enough on the bottom all by itself, but not on top due to the hammock causing a gap by lifting the pod's top layer up above me. Plus if I had much of a breathing vent, there was nothing to block heat from escaping, what with that gap above my upper chest/neck region, and that warm air could go right up the chimney of the vent. But since I frequently wear all my clothes anyway(unless not very cold), and I have plenty of layers with me anyway for trying to jeep warm and dry when NOT in the hammock sleeping, I just layered them above me as described in my previous post. With them unzipped, normal front opening facing the bottom of the hammock, and my arms through the sleeves. This both filled the gap and blocked the loss of heat from the neck area up the chimney, no matter if I had a little face vent or a lot. And I already had all of these clothes with me, and assuming they were dry, why not use them? Worked for me. With my arms through the sleeves, they stayed in place very well, even without the aid pf the pod closed around the entire hammock, which tended to help whatever- clothes or quilts- stay in place.

Of course, I could- and did- accomplish the same thing with even better results by using an extra quilt on top, either the lightest one I could find or an outright winter one, top or bottom. This was for when I knew I needed to extend the pods rating well beyond it's nominal 20F, and I didn't want any question about it. Ad this worked in an even more bomb proof way. But of course, unlike using my puffy clothing that I needed anyway for when not bundled in my pod, this now added extra bulk, weight and maybe cost if I didn't have an extra quilt or 2 handy. But if I needed to go below zero with my 20F pod, I'm either going to have to carry some extra quilts, or have a whole lot of clothing with me, maybe more than I would normally have even on a winter trip.

It would be lighter weight, if you knew you were going to go way below your quilts rating, even what you could do by layering the clothing you have with you anyway( or for the more adventurous, using VBs, but not many will do that), to just buy quilts rated plenty warm enough for the temps you expect. That saves the added weight of all of those extra shells. But, folks do not always want to spend the money for that, or have the room at home to store all of those quilts. And that is when layering with what you already have with you, or even taking a bit of extra clothing for sleep use, or even hauling extra quilts, or even VBs ( ) can come in mighty handy.

One other caution: not everything is as easy to layer(top or bottom) with as a pod is, or for the back warmth, as easy as an HHSS(look up kwpapke's HHSS minus 27F with Shug to see some smart layering, and he was plenty warm). But with some experimenting and maybe minor mods it can certainly be done. Never mind looking it up, here it is. It sure makes for interesting reading, from 10 years ago. Remember, for the minority here who like an HHSS, many of us only consider it a system for about in the 30s. Just shows you what layering is capable of if you want or need to do it:

Supershelter @ -27F

Shug and I headed up to the Superior Trail for a coupla nights of

snowshoeing. My gear was my typical HH stock configuration with added insulation. Hammock picture here: That's me with my head behind the tree...
Yes, my tarp isn't real taut, but we weren't expecting any snow so I didn't bother to tighten it up.

Gear common to both nights:
Hammock: HH Explorer UL, stock tarp, Supershelter + overcover
Bag: 0F REI Zenith mummy bag, synthetic insulation
Clothing, torso: smartwool SS T-shirt, LS Powerdry shirt, Marmot Precip jacket for VB
Clothing, legs: Powerdry longjohns, Marmot Precip pants as VB, polypro ski pants, 200 wt Polarfleece pants
Feet: silk liner socks, bread bag for VB, heavy wool socks, 400g Thinsulate boot liners. 1L insulated Nalgene filled w/ boiling water pressed against bottom of feet.
Head: Psolarx fleece balaclava without the heat exchanger

Night one, -5F: in my Undercover, in addition to standard space blanket, did my typical cold-weather configuration of Exped Multimat on the bottom, and a down jacket under my back in between the OCF and Multimat.
Clothing - Torso: 200 wt Polarfleece pullover as outer layer

Night two, -27F: added my down +30F REI Sahara down bag between Multimat and OCF in the UC.
Bag: added fleece bag liner, and Primaloft parka thrown over legs
Clothing - Torso: 300 wt Polarfleece as outer layer
Clothing - Neck: fleece neck gaiter to pull up over eyes

Picture of me in the 300 wt Polarfleece here:
This is an LL Bean Ascent jacket that I highly recommend for VERY cold weather. It is much too warm to hike in when the temps are > 0F, but I was comfortable hiking at -20F and it worked well at night.

I was plenty warm both nights. No sensation of cold except for the bridge of my exposed nose.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/6740-Supershelter-27F

[Just Bill]

Cost, Weight, Versatility.

If money is no object... the properly sized (rated) quilt system for conditions is ideal. There is a reason many folks end up owning 3 sets of gear (summer, shoulder, winter).
Tossing money at the problem, in the form of buying a better rated quilt, is still in my opinion the best option. All the other choices come with some compromises and drawbacks.

Stacking quilts is a good way to stretch your dollar/existing gear a bit further... but it takes practice to get right. It also means more weight and bulk in your pack. It complicates your setup, increases the chances of error.

Wearing clothes only really makes sense if you'd already have brought those clothes to wear. Often the 'next' warmer quilt on the spec sheet is in the 2-4 ounce range as mainly you've already got the weight of the shell and suspension in your system. You're adding a bit of baffle material and more fill. There is no clothing item you could pack that will be as good an insulator for the same weight and bulk as a warmer quilt set.

Not getting excessively cold at camp though can be an issue that clothing can address. Even if you go with a bomber quilt set twenty degrees colder than you plan to sleep... if you crawl into bed hypothermic you're going to have a hard time recovering. Often backpackers who are used to wearing minimal clothing make this mistake and try to save weight on the overall system by taking a super warm quilt and skimping on clothes. That can work a little if you will literally stop walking and crawl into your bag while you are still warm... but in deep winter you can become quite chilled within minutes of stopping.

So if you have some insulation layers that you are carrying already... by all means use them to balance out or supplement your sleep system.... within reason.
Keep in mind that you are the only source of heat. If you are wearing too many layers, you're not pumping any heat into your sleep system. If you don't get a good pump of initial heat into your sleep system before your metabolism kicks down to sleepy time... then you won't be warm all night. Often folks are already getting drowsy at camp (and chilled) before getting in bed. One way to think of that from an insulation perspective is that your metabolism has already kicked down to a lower output as your body winds down to rest.

In my opinion it's all a balancing act...
You want to carry enough clothes so that you don't get excessively chilled at camp.
Your greatest need (and lightest option) is for sleeping insulation... which should be sized to do the job most nights.
Ideally on an average night you are removing your outer insulation for sleeping. It's not a bad idea to keep it with you so it stays warm and dry... but you shouldn't need to wear it.
Often wearing too much clothing can have the effect that your body feels warm enough to go to sleep, so it does. If you strip off a layer or two and climb in... yes you'll stay awake longer... but you'll push more heat into your sleep system before you fall asleep. Ultimately your last job before bed is to let your furnace run until the whole sleep system is up to temp... if you are too warm then your internal thermostat gets a false reading that it's job is done and kicks off for the night.

If it ends up being abnormally cold...
You have your sleeping insulation to help supplement things for you while you prepare for bed. Having an oversized shell jacket lets you improvise a 'camp puffy' by stuffing your top quilt into your shell. This will prevent you from getting excessively cold prior to bed.
You also have your insulated puffy/pants to wear to bed to supplement your sleep system.
So in combination... you have around 10-15* of versatility in your total system to 'play with'.

You should also be aware that this is a night 'outside' your normal comfort zone. So eating that fatty meal, having that hot tea, heating a water bottle, doing a few jumping jacks and planning on staying awake for a bit to warm through your sleeping gear before you nod off will all be important too. Winter can be 'boring' and folks don't like to turn in too early at times... so they tend to putz around keeping busy, playing with the fire, or sitting around. All fine stuff to do when it's a normal night well within the limits of the gear you have. But when you are facing a night at the edges of your gear then you'll need to follow the 'old' rules and properly prepare for a cold night. These tricks can easily add 10-20* to the final warmth of your sleep system.


The colder it is, the more fuel it takes to get that rocket to dreamland off the ground. If you don't get that good push and warm things up enough for you to get to cruising speed and nod off... you'll wake up freezing a few hours later and have to start over. If you do wake up... starting over is the only viable option. You need to wake up, stomp around, get your metabolism reved up and possibly get a hot drink. Sitting there praying, hoping and wishing will not generate any more heat. While being pissed off and angry can be mildly productive... unfortunately being 'burning mad' is mainly just an expression and won't warm you either.

You may also be one of those folks who needs a 'midnight snack'. Many folks don't necessarily wake up cold, but wake up with no 'logs left in the fire'. They need a snickers worth of sugar and fat tossed on with a cup of warm water from the hot water bottle to fire it back up. This is often not a 'normal' behavior at home... just one of those things that develops and you have to get to know about yourself.

It's also not uncommon for outdoorsfolks to fall into a 'two sleeps' pattern. Look it up... we used to sleep in shifts. In the winter we are often 'in bed' much longer than we need to sleep and this extra time outdoors, fresh air, activity, and change of pace can lead some to fall back into this pattern. Many learn to enjoy it and find that middle of the night period of wakefulness very pleasant. But if you're not aware of this natural phenomenon of our biology then it can be alarming or concerning... especially in winter. You may feel you're awake because something is wrong, but it really isn't. If you're one of these folks... if your bladder doesn't drive you from bed... you would actually benefit more from remaining in your sleep system. Often folks encounter this period of wakefulness, assume something is wrong, and get out of bed. Then they get chilled, the sleep system looses heat, and getting the whole process going again results in them staying up for the rest of the night.

If you look it up... you'll find there were some folks who got up and worked, read, or made babies during this wakeful period. But more often than not it's a brief window of 15-60 minutes for us modern humans. Ideally you can stare at the stars, contemplate your place in the universe, and enjoy the experience by simply being present. I find this 'two sleeps' type of evening to be my most restful and enjoyable... and one that eludes me at home but has become a frequent and welcome occurrence when camping out of doors. One more frequently encountered since switching to hammocks full time.

Often many folks equate 'awake' with 'system failure'. "If I woke up... something must be wrong."
Dead is my definition of system failure. Waking up from time to time is part of life in the woods. From sleeping in a strange place to connecting to that place... waking up isn't always a problem.
At worst, it means you're alive. At best it means you're truly living.

[Shug]

Id like some feedback on how all of you handle colder weather sleeping in your hammock. When your usual winter system suddenly doesnt keep you warm because of a drop in temps, what are you inclinded to do? Double up on your quilts? Or add more clothing to sleep in? Thanks

May depend on that drop in temps you speak of.
If your talking about going from 30º and trying to get to 5º you may need more than just more clothes for sleeping. A lower rated set of quilts or stacking would be better in my opinion.
If your just talking getting down another 10 or 15 degrees you may be just fine with more clothing and crawling in. Go to sleep as warm as you can be. move around to warm up before crawling in for the night. Hot water bottle in the hammock helps a lot. Pocket hand warmers could help.
Only one way to know.
Worse case you spend a bad night cold with no sleep but at least you will know. Get up and have a hot drink and stoke the fire and do some jumping jacks.
The only way to know if any of this will work for you is to try it.
There is no one exact way for everyone.
Shug

[TxAggie]

Cost, Weight, Versatility......

Excellent write up. You’ve expressed many things that I’ve experienced yet never understood or researched.

Thank you. Now I know My midnight wake-ups are normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cmoulder]

Clothing gets compressed underneath you so I don't see that as a viable way to keep warm. Stacking quilts works great.

Good point, and some clarification on how I do it:

When I use down parka and pants it is to supplement the top quilt only. UQ should still be rated for expected low temps... or in your case 10 deg lower because I recall your mentioning this previously. Personally, I'm okay with the 0 deg Incubator at 0 deg and even a few degrees colder, so in my case the additional layers, although compressed, might still provide a little boost. At 0 deg I'm totally fine with a 20 deg TQ using this setup.

One thing is certain, for someone new to hanging — especially in winter — you never know for sure if something's going to work until you try it.

[Shug]

Good point, and some clarification on how I do it:

When I use down parka and pants it is to supplement the top quilt only. UQ should still be rated for expected low temps... or in your case 10 deg lower because I recall your mentioning this previously. Personally, I'm okay with the 0 deg Incubator at 0 deg and even a few degrees colder, so in my case the additional layers, although compressed, might still provide a little boost. At 0 deg I'm totally fine with a 20 deg TQ using this setup.

One thing is certain, for someone new to hanging — especially in winter — you never know for sure if something's going to work until you try it.

I too normally feel a phantom chill around 4 or 5 AM in a long winter snooze and it is always on top and never beneath me. Sometimes i camp in such cold I just don't want to take off my down sweater so sleep in it or add it at a 4am pee break. Never have I slept in one of my huge puffy down parkas.
The one and only time I slept in down booties I got cold feet so there is something to over-insulating. My feet got clammy and cold in the booties. It works for some but not for me.

[cmoulder]

Often many folks equate 'awake' with 'system failure'. "If I woke up... something must be wrong."
Dead is my definition of system failure. Waking up from time to time is part of life in the woods. From sleeping in a strange place to connecting to that place... waking up isn't always a problem.
At worst, it means you're alive. At best it means you're truly living.

Howling coyotes woke me up last night around 12:30 am and kept it up for a good hour and a half. However, I tucked in a little before 7 pm, and since I normally sleep only 6 hours when I'm at home, that was almost a full night's sleep already! But after irrigating the vegetation and doing a few other things I did fall back into a deep sleep and woke up about 15 minutes before a gorgeous sunrise this morning.

[cmoulder]

I too normally feel a phantom chill around 4 or 5 AM in a long winter snooze and it is always on top and never beneath me. Sometimes i camp in such cold I just don't want to take off my down sweater so sleep in it or add it at a 4am pee break. Never have I slept in one of my huge puffy down parkas.
The one and only time I slept in down booties I got cold feet so there is something to over-insulating. My feet got clammy and cold in the booties. It works for some but not for me.

I also don't use booties... they make my feet too hot. Just some thin liner socks are plenty, and my little sit pad under my heels when using the 3/4 UQ.

[oldpappy]

I always bring a single wall stainless steel water bottle. It can be used as a Hot water bottle for unexpected temps - I like to use a hot water bottle whenever it will be close to my equipment's temp rating or sometimes just to pre-head my hammock.