Karo Steps : why isn't this used much

**GilligansWorld** · 12-12-2018, 11:59

I've seen a number of videos online now showing how to do this. After seeing these and seeing the finished product my question is this; why don't we see do-it-yourselfers or even some of our cottage vendors using this style?

Are there advantages to either vertical or horizontal baffles? I know local Libra uses the Chevron in some of their higher-end series, but is there any statistical data, articles, heck even math, that show one advantage over another?

Is is there an advantage to a particular style?

Would love any opinion or hopefully any direction to some actual factual data.

Thanks
GILLY

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**MAD777** · 12-12-2018, 12:16

Just one opinion of someone who has made both styles....
Straight baffles are easier to sew than Karo.
Karo is easier to fill than straight.
With straight, you know which way down will migrate.
Personally, I prefer Karo for thin top quilts and straight for thick top quilts.
Karo doesn't belong on underquilts because it is too difficult to get the proper differential cut.

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**OneClick** · 12-12-2018, 12:39

I don't want corn syrup anywhere near my quilts.

**Just Bill** · 12-12-2018, 13:02

"KARO Step is a type of baffling commonly found in goods made for the bedroom. Some guys on H.F. made a few quilts with this baffle design and it has gained interest because the entire bag is just one large chamber. This allows all the down to be inserted and at one time and then evenly distributed. When we talk about 12/6 10/6 or 14/6 we are talking about the size of the boxes, 10, 12 or 14 and the size of the baffle walls, 6. Each box has a baffle centered on each side. if the box is 14" and the baffle 6" then there will be a gap of 4" on each side of every baffle. when you start putting these boxes side by side the 4" gap is next to another 4" gap so you have 6" baffle 8" gap. With baffles going in both directions your down control is very high but the overall baffle length is very low, almost half that of a traditional quilt. It allows for a lighter quilt, less baffle materials, and simpler construction, less sewing and only have to measure down once then stuff it all in.

-Tim"

Pasted from this thread- https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/51009/

**Just Bill** · 12-12-2018, 13:14

To answer your question...

Tim is the owner of Enlightened Equipment and they use Karo Step for their Revolt underquilts. https://enlightenedequipment.com/revolt/

It's a nice way to build a quilt with only one chamber to fill and as Tim mentioned... got a lot of attention among gram weenies on BPL to shave baffle weight.

I think EE is one of, if not the best, quilt makers around. The baffle patter on the Revelation is fairly revolutionary and one of the most efficient.

But I have to say that the karo step as and underquilt is a disappointing bust.

Perhaps if one did two chambers at each edge, with a Karo Step in the middle of the quilt it might do better.
Perhaps the simple fact that EE uses this design over the karo step for it's top quilts is enough of a clue that for various reasons it didn't pan out long term.

I think George's chevron baffles are very interesting as well, especially in high fill power, high temp applications.
I agree with Mad777 that the karo can be nice for a lower loft/low temp design.

I think that if you look up some of my 'overstuff insight' threads or other mentions you might find some math explaining it if you wanted... but it's hard to say.
There is no hard fast rule on baffle designs and it's always a balance of shell weight, labor costs, difficulty to fill, and temp rating. If in doubt... a decent way to figure it is look at what most are doing and figure they are doing a good enough job at it seeing as they are still in business.

**rais'n hammock** · 12-12-2018, 13:29

I agree with reasons above. For me it was a question of filling from one spot or the ability to add easily through one spot if I missed in the calculations of my design. The sewing was more complicated when joining the top and bottom layers of the quilt but the filling was far simpler. I have since made channeled UQs and found a better way for adding the down.

With Karo it is much easier to concentrate down where you want it any time. I like more at the outsides about knee level so that when I put my leg up it is still covered. I also like more by my feet. I can do this without special baffles or extra consideration in the initial design. Simple to add a little more to those few squares when pushing it round. It also migrates far less from top to bottom than a quilt with vertical channels or side to side with horizontal panels.

Having done both I would still choose Karo for top quilts and channels for UQ. My next UQ will probably use the Chevron channel ala the Loco Libre Reapers.

For vendors or commercial quilts my guess is that they are holding to the time is money approach and if there is not a great demand for Karo at the higher cost then save some money and time in construction with sewing long straight runs. They have figured out the down filling process too so that is not an issue like it may be for many DIYer's.

**rweb82** · 12-12-2018, 13:31

Originally Posted by Just Bill

To answer your question...

Tim is the owner of Enlightened Equipment and they use Karo Step for their Revolt underquilts. https://enlightenedequipment.com/revolt/

It's a nice way to build a quilt with only one chamber to fill and as Tim mentioned... got a lot of attention among gram weenies on BPL to shave baffle weight.

I think EE is one of, if not the best, quilt makers around. The baffle patter on the Revelation is fairly revolutionary and one of the most efficient.

But I have to say that the karo step as and underquilt is a disappointing bust.

Perhaps if one did two chambers at each edge, with a Karo Step in the middle of the quilt it might do better.
Perhaps the simple fact that EE uses this design over the karo step for it's top quilts is enough of a clue that for various reasons it didn't pan out long term.

I think George's chevron baffles are very interesting as well, especially in high fill power, high temp applications.
I agree with Mad777 that the karo can be nice for a lower loft/low temp design.

I think that if you look up some of my 'overstuff insight' threads or other mentions you might find some math explaining it if you wanted... but it's hard to say.
There is no hard fast rule on baffle designs and it's always a balance of shell weight, labor costs, difficulty to fill, and temp rating. If in doubt... a decent way to figure it is look at what most are doing and figure they are doing a good enough job at it seeing as they are still in business.

I have one of George's Carolina Reaper UQs (chevron baffles), and have never had to redistribute the down. It is a superb baffle design, IMO- and looks awesome to boot. I also like that George uses a horizontal layout with his Ghost Pepper top quilt- which also utilizes the chevron baffles. For top quilts- used in a hammock in conjunction with an underquilt, I still think horizontal baffles make the most sense, and will keep you warmer than vertical baffles. The reason is when you compress the sides of the TQ, the down can be redistributed toward the middle of the quilt- providing "overfill" in the area that is keeping you warm. The sides of the UQ should provide the warmth for your shoulders/sides- so the down on the sides of the TQ is better used elsewhere. With vertical baffled top quilts, you still get the side compression, but you lose the ability to redistribute that down where it will be useful.

That's just my two cents.

**GilligansWorld** · 12-12-2018, 15:23

Great info everyone. That's why I love this for him you guys are free with your ideas suggestions and opinions.

Happy holidays all and if anybody has any other thoughts I'm wide open thank you very much

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**Otter1** · 12-12-2018, 15:44

Having owned and used horizontal, vertical, and Karo TQ's, I can say that I am not a fan of horizontal unless baffle spacing is minimized (too much down shift).

Also, one advantage of Karo's is the ease of stuffing, as has been mentioned. Another is the ability to put the down where you want it at any given time. THese, unfortunately, lead to inconvenient down shifting (read: COLD SPOTS) as well. It's why I sold my Karo TQ's.