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  1. #11
    Senior Member LuvmyBonnet's Avatar
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    I think he means the Horrid Walfart.
    Hanging in the woods, paddlin and catching trout- My kind of living...

  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snwcmpr View Post
    Can you tell me where that is. Western Mountaineering, I thought, only sells down.

    Great topic, great read.

    We are in the same storm, I think. Western NC.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuvmyBonnet View Post
    I think he means the Horrid Walfart.
    Oh, right, sorry, I did mean Walmart. But I'm sure you guys knew it couldn't be Western Mountaineering going by the "100% polyester. $19-$34 bucks.". We probably are in the same storm. It has been raining here- a cold rain- since about 0100, no real let up. But I remember we had a very challenging HF hang out in the Sipsey Wilderness back in Feb 09, constant heavy rain and thunderstorms for a Fri night, all day Saturday finally turning to snow just after midnight to Sunday morning. That was challenging weather, what with folks sliding down the mud, or the mud/snow mix, on the steep creek banks. But I think every one stayed more or less OK. That was a good trip!

  3. #13
    Senior Member snwcmpr's Avatar
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    HA HA HA!
    It never occurred to me to think Wally World.

    Thanks
    I collect vintage camp stoves.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    It's good to see this reminder, even if it makes me shiver. As I recall, I think I was the only one that had a complete change of dry clothes when we reached the Wise shelter (including multiple layers for my legs), and I'm pretty sure my upper body didn't get very wet because I took care not to dress too warm when we set out. Though the others suffered hypothermia, they were thinking clearly enough to realize their danger before I did.

    When we got back to the group campsite I was disappointed that there wasn't a fire going. I was glad I had prepared two hammock setups, one to carry on our hike and a second, much warmer one with tarp and sock already attached, so I was warm and asleep within 20 minutes or so. (Stayed that way for ten hours or more, too.) Next day, talking with some other guys I learned what we should have done when we had to wade across Quebec Branch. Instead of getting our boots soaked, we should have taken them off and worn heavy wool socks to cross the stream, then put on dry socks and boots on the other side. I had dry socks with me and could have done that. The others might not have - their packs looked smaller than mine.

  5. #15
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV View Post
    It's good to see this reminder, even if it makes me shiver. As I recall, I think I was the only one that had a complete change of dry clothes when we reached the Wise shelter (including multiple layers for my legs), and I'm pretty sure my upper body didn't get very wet because I took care not to dress too warm when we set out. Though the others suffered hypothermia, they were thinking clearly enough to realize their danger before I did.

    When we got back to the group campsite I was disappointed that there wasn't a fire going. I was glad I had prepared two hammock setups, one to carry on our hike and a second, much warmer one with tarp and sock already attached, so I was warm and asleep within 20 minutes or so. (Stayed that way for ten hours or more, too.) Next day, talking with some other guys I learned what we should have done when we had to wade across Quebec Branch. Instead of getting our boots soaked, we should have taken them off and worn heavy wool socks to cross the stream, then put on dry socks and boots on the other side. I had dry socks with me and could have done that. The others might not have - their packs looked smaller than mine.
    Thanks for the comment and info, David! Interesting approach- boots off- for that creek crossing. We also had a lot of creek crossings on that Feb 09 Sipsey trip where it snowed 5". We routed to avoid the highest creeks- even changed plans because of one- and on the others found a way to cross on logs or went far enough upstream to find a crossing. But there were several near falls into the creeks as some slipped down the muddy banks. They didn't go into the creeks, but did get muddy and a bit wet. Plus of course, there was the constant heavy rain fall and later snow.

    I did a spur of the moment test today. Earlier I posed a question about if VBs would help more than harm in these situations. To keep sweat out of the insulation. Today I hiked 30 minutes at an average of 3.3 miles per hour. It was 50F and raining. I wore a SWL VB shirt with it's liner. I wanted to just wear the VB, but I didn't want to carry an umbrella, so I added a Marmot Precip shell.

    It was interesting. It amounted to just enough insulation, with amazingly, no sweat. Sometime the rain drops felt a little cold, other times I felt like I was just warm enough, maybe just shy of hot enough to sweat. I felt like I might could have tolerted 1 more very thin layer without sweating. I had OR Helium rain pants on over nylon cargo pants, and Gore Tex hiking shoes. When I got home, I had stayed dry(only at it for 30 minutes of course) under my rain jacket and pants, and my socks were also dry(I went through some small puddles on purpose).

    When I took the VB shirt off, as far as I could tell, my skin and the Fuzzy Stuff inner layer were all dry. If I had that thinner layer on, I might not have sweated, or maybe I would. But, if I did the sweat would not get into my insulation freezing me when I stop moving. If it had been in the 30s, maybe I could have tolerated a light to medium fleece or a heavier long john top without much sweat.

    Of course, I don't really need a VB approach( EDIT: for hiking at least, even if it would be valuable to keep sweat out of clothing)) based on my years of previous experience, so far. This is a new approach for me, which I am just experimenting with. Ordinarily on a hike like today, I would have a fleece jacket under my breathable rain gear. I have hiked all day in the pouring rain threatening to snow- or skied all day- in such gear and done fine. But, I know I sweat sometimes and when I stop, I might get chilled. Since I am guaranteed to sweat with or without VB- just won't feel it as much without the VB because my insulation will soak it up- maybe there is some advantage to using that VB to keep my sweat out of my insulation? Experimentation will continue.

    In either case, when I stop, I like to pull on a puffy, synthetic, WPB hooded jacket quickly,over my rain shell and the insulation that is under the rain shell. Do it quick before I start cooling down. Then maybe fire up a white gas stove and get something hot going, hopefully after putting up a tarp to get out of the wind and rain.

    I have seen some of that approach used in large groups. We were going to cross the East Fork River in the Wind River Mountains, WY by Tyrolean Traverse. It was blowing snow ( about 12" or more) on June 27th. As the group stopped and began rigging up the rope and picking the best place to cross the white water, we noticed that 3 of the younger guys were getting a little blue in the lips, and starting to slur their speech and/or shivering and/or stumbling around, etc. A bunch of us jumped on them! While some harrassed them into running in place to generate some heat, others broke out the gas stoves and heated a bunch of water and forced them to drink some hot chocolate with added butter. In a short time, all 3 were good to go. BTW, we did not have breathable rain gear, the instructors would not allow it back in 85. We had 100% waterproof coated nylon anoraks(and rain pants), with 100% synthetic clothing underneath.

    One day we did a river crossing(one of many), wading through that ice cold snow melt. Usually we would strip down to our under wear/bathing suits, and keep our boots on with out socks. (The instructors said our feet would get numb from the cold and we would not feel the rocks cutting our feet, so boots were kept on) But on this one day, after several crossings, I said to heck with it and kept my polyester fleece( it was called bunting) pants on. They obviously got soaked as it was waist deep. But I was amazed when after about 30 minute of hiking, they seemed to be totally dry. But, it was low humidity and probably a sunny day. But point is: it is a good thing to have clothes that dry quickly.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-13-2018 at 09:46.

  6. #16
    Senior Member sidneyhornblower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    I see you are a Georgia boy from over near where I used to live(a bit south west of you in Warner Robins and other GA towns further west), so you may be under the same system I am, lots of cold rain....

    I'm thinking I could quickly pull a puffy shell like that right over wet clothes and it would be a huge help, and would not be hurt much by the wet undergarments.
    Yep, same weather system, lots of cold rain for hours and hours.

    On your second point about clothing: rainy wet weather like this may be where fleece, despite its weight, has something of an edge. Using fleece under some type of shell provides warmth and fleece deals with wet weather a little better perhaps than down. At least, I think I'd be less concerned about getting my fleece pullover wet. Wouldn't want it soaked, obviously, but it can stand some mist. I think I like fleece tops for sleeping because lying on them doesn't crush the insulating properties out of them as much as lying on down does. The con is, they're heavy to carry. I've got several fleece tops, one of which weighs something like 16-18 ounces by itself. These days that one gets left at home more often than taken along.
    "...the height of hammock snobbery!"

  7. #17
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Cold and wet, the most dangerous combination by far.

    When it's raining/sleeting/snowing and above freezing — and even several degrees below — you're going to get wet one way or another if you're exercising in these conditions. That's why I love it when it's about 20°F, because it isn't too cold and yet everything remains solidly frozen, and it's easy to ventilate clothing to avoid overheating. However, freezing rain ("ice storm") can be the absolute worst.

    In the linked thread, the mention of cotton makes me shudder — it should be absolutely banned in the winter, and silk isn't much better, and even some merino wool can take a very long time to dry. Nothing beats good ole polyester, and some say polypropylene, but outside the Lifa brand I'm not aware offhand that there are very many (if any other) sources for polypro these days. In any event, the properties of polyester are IMO preferable to polypro, anyway... it's lighter in weight and isn't prone to shrinkage in a very hot clothes dryer.

    For the multi-day backpacking scenario, where you don't have an unlimited weight budget, and given that you're going to get wet, the classic layer elements of base (polyester), insulation (fleece, or some variation thereof), shell (GTX hoodie, Packa or other rain gear) and puffy (Climashield/Primaloft synthetic for protracted wet) still works, BUT you MUST have a dry base layer (top, bottom, socks, beanie, buff) to change into after you've set up camp, and you need to keep your wet stuff in a plastic bag and make sure it stays warm enough not to freeze. It's very difficult, but you have to put these wet clothes back on the next morning, all while hoping/praying/begging your diety of choice that the wetness will depart and give you a chance to dry things out as you walk.

    Also, the sleeping insulation MUST be kept dry. When we're very cold, it's tempting to burrow under the warm quilts without first changing into that dry base. Huge mistake that will lead to compromising the insulation's effectiveness, and if you're still wet you're still wasting enormous amounts of precious energy converting liquid to vapor, and that wetness is transferred to your puffy insulation. For prolonged wet use, consider as insulation Climashield/Primaloft products for both quilts and puffy jackets/pants.

    One such trip that some friends and I did last year in early April was the Black Forest Trail in PA which is a 42 mile loop (although my excellent GPS track, which was carefully edited to clear up any wayward spikes, indicated 45 mi) with about 12,000 feet of vertical. Day one started off misty and cool, and gradually got very cool (low 40s) and it started really raining around 1 pm and continued that way into the night. We pitched tents (I wasn't a hammocker then) in the rain and it just got colder and colder. Later in the night the rain turned to sleet and snow, and it was a few degrees below freezing by morning as the sleet continued falling.

    As mentioned above, it was tough putting on those cold, wet clothes for Day two, but it helped to take care of breakfast and all packing first while still dry, leaving only the changing of clothes and quickly striking the tent before hitting the trail. Day two featured many stream crossings (we stopped counting but it was well over 20) and so feet and pants were quite literally soaking wet all the time. We were fortunate that by the end of Day 2 the sleet finally relented and we were able to walk the last 2-3 miles of that 14 mile day without a stream crossing, which helped shoes and pants dry out a bit, although they were still quite damp. It was still cold and it was quite windy down in the hollow where we camped.

    Next morning there were finally some warm-tinted, glorious rays of light hitting the ridge above us, and we warmed up quickly on the steep climb out of the drainage and our synthetic clothing started drying out quickly.

    Many stream crossings, temp at or below freezing with sleet (my buddy, Mark): 20170407_094803.jpg

    Waking up to wet and freezing weather: 20170407_075004.jpg

    Finally clearing up, morning of day three: 20170408_090638.jpg

    Of course, fabulous weather the last day! 20170409_074746.jpg
    Last edited by cmoulder; 11-13-2018 at 08:33.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member sidneyhornblower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Interesting approach- boots off- for that creek crossing.
    If you've got something like Crocs or sandals or some other quick draining/drying camp shoes, why would you NOT take off boots and socks for creek crossings? I forgot to mention that on my last trip to Sipsey in December 2017 I suffered the weight of my camp shoes specifically for that purpose - keeping shoes and socks dry. Both times I forded the Sipsey I took off shoes and socks and used my Crocs. You can see me doing so about midway through this short video of the trip linked below, about 1:54 on the timeline. Air temperature at the time was barely above freezing. My feet were numb but the Crocs protected them from the rocks and I was able to dry off and put on dry socks and shoes when I got to the other side. I think that beats walking in squishy wet footwear in freezing temps.

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  9. #19
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    Very good read as the seasons change. Thanks to OP for bringing this on back.

  10. #20
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidneyhornblower View Post
    Yep, same weather system, lots of cold rain for hours and hours.

    On your second point about clothing: rainy wet weather like this may be where fleece, despite its weight, has something of an edge. Using fleece under some type of shell provides warmth and fleece deals with wet weather a little better perhaps than down. At least, I think I'd be less concerned about getting my fleece pullover wet. Wouldn't want it soaked, obviously, but it can stand some mist. I think I like fleece tops for sleeping because lying on them doesn't crush the insulating properties out of them as much as lying on down does. The con is, they're heavy to carry. I've got several fleece tops, one of which weighs something like 16-18 ounces by itself. These days that one gets left at home more often than taken along.
    Yes, I think you are right, there would be an advantage to fleece or most any synthetic clothing if moisture is the main concern, as it turned out to be for these folks in the old threads linked to in the OP. Cold was not really their problem, they had plenty of insulation for that, until the wet forced it's way in. Due to failed rain gear and or sweat/condensation. I think some puffy synthetic would have saved the day. Again, I'm wondering about David's(WV's) Gore Tex ski pants which worked so well in the wet, even after wading that creek? Puffy synthetic?

    Ditto on sleeping in the fleece due to lack of compression. And it is heavy. If you leave the fleece at home, what do you take in it's place these days?

    My all time favorite for probably a decade now- and beginning to wear out - came from Bozeman Mountain Works(don't think they are in business anymore) is a hooded, water proof breathable(Pertex Endurance, about 1000 mm water column rated, not very high but enough) Polarguard Delta jacket that weighs a whopping 12 oz in XL. The thing is, it is warmer than any fleece jacket I have ever used, it is windproof and at least quite water resistant. (but compresses some, unlike fleece) it was expensive for a non Gore Tex synthetic jacket, but it ha been great. And the 8 oz pants have also been excellent, though I did not get the WPB shell for some reason, always wished I had. And I know that the shell actually "breathes", since after I had it for years I put it to the test by pouring some water inside of it as it sat in a sink, gently squeezing the water out, putting it on and going for the same 30 minute fast walk that I did in my test yesterday. But in rain turning to snow at about freezing. Not only did I stay warm, even at the sleeve ends where water drained to and did not dry out, but when I got home, everything except those sleeve ends was totally dry as far as I could tell. I'm sure I could save a few more oz with something else, which might be even a little warmer for the weight, but I was sold, that is the one for me. Pretty good wet weather performance for a hooded jacket at only 12-13 oz XL, IMO.

    But, it is getting about time I replaced it. Which is what got me to looking at those Walmart jackets for about $20-$30, LOL! They were puffy polyester(that is all Polarguard/Climashield is really) and claimed to have either wind and/or WPB shells. I am so tempted to get one for yard work if nothing else, where I am liable to tear my good stuff on a plants with sharp pointy parts. I feel fairly certain they would do a great job in wet cold.

    This is the sort of thing I(we) advised some guides about years ago, while horse packing up in the Wind Rivers, WY, early Sept. With lows about 20F every morning. We were standing around a big fire at breakfast, and a discussion of "cotton kills" came up, and these 3 young guides and expert horsemen(and 1 woman) from OK spoke up and said "well, he**, cotton has always been fine for us". Then we pointed out to them that they were the only ones- despite having on thick layers- hopping up and down from foot to foot trying to stay warm by the fire, they looked like they were freezing, and it wasn't even the least bit wet! They admitted we seemed to have a point. But they could in no way afford high dollar, brand name gear. I advised them to get to a Sam's, Walmart or surplus store- or go to yard sales- and get themselves some dirt cheap insulation, just look for 100% polyester. Or wool. Either puffy or fleece in layers(they had no concern for weight or bulk). They were coming back up there in Oct to bring elk hunters, and they were going to be miserable or worse if they didn't get out of that cotton.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-13-2018 at 10:57.

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