Lol I appreciate that but I am a bit dumb when it comes to that stuff....it really goes over my head....would 1 of the 3 oz. Bags be enough for a full length UQ? I can sew it, and I can stuff it, but I cant even begin to imagine how much 3 oz would be if I had it sitting in front of meOriginally Posted by mathineer
3oz wouldn't be near enough for a full length UQ. The top quilt I'm planning will require about 18oz of 800fp down, so based on Dutch's info you'd need about 24 oz of this stuff for the same warmth rating (I'm targeting 10 to 20F). Another thing you could do is go to any of the quilt suppliers such as Hammock Gear, and select the quilt dimensions and rating and fp of the down. Most of them tell you how much down is in the quilt. So if they say the quilt needs 12 oz of down at 800 fp, you'd need about 16oz of the UP (1.3 * 12 = 15.6, and round up to 16).
mathineer
Thank you so very much!!!!!!
I was having the same thoughts and issues as Smckinney0031 ---- So - thank you mathineer for the info you provided.
Also - in the discussion section for UP insulation on Dutch's site, someone had asked about the amt needed for a 30-40* TQ.... the answer given was "With the UP insulation it is about 30% more than 800 fill. It would be about 13oz for a 30° top quilt."
Don't know if that helps or not....
The UP insulation is confusing me (which isn't difficult). Temperature ratings for down quilts are based on the amount of loft of the quilt and the fill power of the down is essentially irrelevant. It's just a question of how much down of a given FP do you need to add to achieve the desired loft. 1oz. of 600FP down fills 600 c.i., while 1oz. of 900FP down fills 900 c.i. (50% more for the same weight). The UP product page says:
Warmth
UP has tested to be warmer than a 600 fill power Goose Down when tested for warmth based on equal volume. While no synthetic can equal the warmth to weight, compressibility and resiliency of down, UP makes up for it with sheer durability and water resistance.
If we're talking about an "equal volume", then the FP of the down is irrelevant. I would surmise that UP is warmer but heavier than down for an equal volume, but of course, so is Climashield. I'm still not sure how much UP I would need to fill an UQ of a particular volume, nor can I guess what the temperature rating would be. Just warmer than down.
It's not possible to say that a 30-40 degree UQ would need 9 oz. or this or 12 oz. of that without talking about what actual dimensions and volume of the UQ are. 9 oz. in a 3/4 length narrow UQ will yield a totally different result than 9 oz. in an extra long extra wide UQ.
If I want a 72" long x 44" wide UP-insulated 20F UQ, how tall should the baffles be? For a down UQ, I would want 2.5" baffles. With 800FP down that would be (72 x 44 x 2.5)/800 = 9.9 oz. of down. I guess I need 9.9 x 1.3 = ~13 oz of UP for a 20F UQ that is 72" x 44", but how tall should my baffles be? I presume that for a given volume UP is warmer than CS, but I can't really tell that either.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but it looks like some information is missing that would allow me to design an UQ with UP to a specific temp rating.
Edit: I missed on the product page that UP is essentially the same fill power as 625FP down, so I guess 1 oz fills 625 cubic inches. So I guess that 13 oz of UP would fill 8,125 cubic inches and I could back into the height of my baffles from that. But that yields a baffle height of 2.5" which is the same as the down option for a 20F UQ, and we know that UP is warmer than down for a given volume as stated on the product page which still leaves me confused.
Last edited by Caminante; 11-13-2018 at 16:57.
Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más... - Antonio Machado
What's needed here are the various "r"-values of the materials being compared. I don't even know if an inch of 600FP down has the same "r"-value as an inch of 900FP down... I'm guessing they're close but not identical.
In practice they're close enough if you're talking about an inch of loft. Most manufacturers provide temperature ratings for down products based on the inches of loft. So the different FP's of down achieve the same loft = temp rating, but at different weights. The r-value or CLO of the UP insulation would be a good data point.
Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más... - Antonio Machado
This does get messy and confussing....
Traditionally synthetic and down are two totally different sets of design (CLO vs LOFT). I don't know anything special about UP. I do need to discuss it with Dutch but...
The first synthetic down that has a marketable use was 'Thermoball' produced for The North Face by Primaloft. Rather than producing batts (sheets/roll goods) like Primaloft Gold or Climbashield Apex, this process produces a nearly identical product in a loose fill structure. In fact when I came out I used to joke that I could 'make' Thermoball by pulling the loose stuff off the edge of my cutting table after working with PLG. Basically if you ran Primaloft Gold through a shredder and fluffer you'd get thermoball.
This product is also produced for other vendors in various forms such as the recent Plumafill and other advanced flavors for Patagonia.
I have no idea who made UP... nor am I asking or suggesting Dutch share that publicly... or that he is even allowed to do that.
I also have Primaloft Gold Down Blend which is an 80/20 blend of down and synthetic down that I was not terribly impressed with but may still revisit. The application window for this product was just too narrow for me.
Point being... in loose fill form... synthetic falls right back to the same formula you use for down. What you do need is the Fill Power number, just like you do with down, to complete the design.
The very very best synthetic down I am aware of is by Primaloft and comes in around 650-675 fill power.
So 'UP' coming in around 600-625 is still pretty impressive. Again... a reason I might bug Dutch personally on what exactly he is using here. But not relevant to you guys really...
To use 'UP'; you still need to understand how to design a sleeping bag and calculate fill weights properly.
The simplest possible formula is:
Carefully measure your; Length Width, and loft (thickness). in inches.
LxWxL= cubic inches of volume for exact fill.
Then you divide cubic inches by the fill power of the product you are using.
You then multiply that number by 130%. That is overfill and 30% is the industry standard starter number. Just use it.
That is not overstuff... the first 30% covers over fill for complicated reasons I have explained elsewhere. Anything beyond that is overstuff and up to you.
Doesn't matter if that's 600 fill power UP or 950 fill power down.
VOLUME IS VOLUME. LOFT IS LOFT. But not all fills are of equal weight.
Here is my loft chart- https://1drv.ms/b/s!Apygyt54yYPwg40vo1VSor5A3Tm47w
It is loft of the product, not weight, fill power, or anything else that determines the temperature rating of loose fill insulation.
Synthetic Batt Material uses CLO- not loft. Though this chart gives you a rough idea on how to convert between them.
FOR NOW; I'd suggest that folks who try UP calculate their fill based upon 600 FP with 30% overfill.
If it proves out that it is holding up well to compression, has good loft recovery in the field, and does what his Dutchness claims once folks get a chance to use it in the field for a year or two... THEN you could consider running it at 625/650 Fill power if you want to push things.
That's not me talking shart or calling into question Dutch in any way. It's actually just good common sense for any new insulation product. Ultimately if folks are realistic with this insulation it will do better in the market.
There is a need for synthetics but my opinion remains that batting based synthetics have limited use beyond 45*, and zero use below 20*. These loose fill products are interesting options but his Dutchness is joining Primaloft and Patagonia on the sharp end here in using them. NOBODY knows enough about them to claim anything with serious expertise.
I think it's worth a shot, especially for a 20* UQ/30* Top Quilt set for the many folks at this forum who live in the south and east who struggle with down.
Treat it just like down... run your calcs with 600 FP.
DO NOT put synthetic insulation into a compression sack. You really shouldn't put any insulation in that crap... but especially not synthetic.
In the Future...
So that 30% overfill I mentioned above. Part of what that covers is loss of loft once down leaves the laboratory and actually has to perform in the real world. Exactly how much is debatable.
It also helps vendors keep customers expectations regarding 'downy goodness' and bursting at the seams loft. Because in actuality almost every quilt you buy from a vendor at HF is technically overfilled to keep you happy. That said... I digress;
What could be interesting in the world of loose fill synthetics is if we could reduce the portion of overfill needed to compensate for loss of performance in the field.
Synthetic= hydrophobic. As in not quite so prone to humidity induced loss of loft.
However before one gets super thrilled... synthetics tend to rebound a bit slower than down... so what's really important is actual loft roughly 30 mins to 60 minutes (max) after it comes out of your pack.
But in theory...
7000 cubic inch quilt as an example.
7000/800FP down x 1.3= 11.375 ounces of fill
7000/700FP x 1.3= 13 ounces of fill.
7000/600FP UP x 1.15= 13.42 ounces of fill
Not saying that slashing out 15% of overfill is even realistic... but in theory if your insulation is no longer affected by humidity losses in the field then you can reduce that number.
If field use testing were to demonstrate that... then your 600FP laboratory rated UP... would come closer to 700 FP down in your finished product.
That is the promising thing about synthetics that very very few people have considered. To date... even the big boys look at the lab test and stop there.
So do most customers. But sneaky assholes who build tricksy bridges think about things a bit differently.
But...the claim is that UP is warmer than 600FP down for a given volume. Which is really to say, that it's warmer than down for a given volume since the FP is, practically speaking, irrelevant for down so long as you properly fill the volume. Based on that claim, if you fill your 7000 c.i. quilt with UP instead of down, it should would be warmer than the same quilt stuffed with down. Saying that a given volume stuffed with any loose fill will yield the same temperature rating isn't adding up for me, nor is it what the claim on UP is saying.
Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más... - Antonio Machado
Omg you guys are confusing me to death....I dont know if I am hanging UP or down
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