Grizz Ariel bridge question

[Johnson]

I am getting ready to build a bridge hammock. I currently sleep full-time in a Warbonnet RR, but I want a little more room, and perhaps a better side sleep. At first I was just going to build a simple Bic/HikingDad version. Then, upon more reading, I thought maybe a WV People’s Bridge. Then more reading, and I decided to go with the more difficult classic Grizz Ariel with recessed bars. There are a number of comments that, aside from button holes and folded material channels, probably the most difficult issue is splicing the suspension lines accurately. (spliced loop, followed by two spliced “eyes” for the spreader bars, and finished with another loop – all with exact measurements). I received a tip from Just Bill to possibly spice 4 suspension lines, then put them under tension, then lay them out side-by-side to find a good matching pair.
A thought came . . . to maybe make the suspension not in two lengths, but four separate ones. The two most critical in measurements, the parallel Amsteel lines in the side channels, could be the appropriate length with only a spliced loop at each end. These loops would be attached with a Lark’s Head knot to sewing bobbins that would slip over the spreader bar tips. Then, another two lengths with only spliced loops again at each end for the head and foot ‘dogbone’ triangles. The loops would also be attached with Lark’s Head knots to the spreader bar bobbin tips (or maybe attached to each other and slipped over the bobbin). These last two lengths would not have to be very accurate since the center of the lines would be the apex of the triangle suspension, and then be Lark’s-headed to probably a carabiner for simplicity, or maybe a cinch buckle to complete. If my thoughts are right, I would only have to be accurate on 4 splices instead of 8. This seems?? at the moment to make sense to me, and, if I follow the tip from Just Bill it will also save a lot of cordage.

[FJRpilot]

I think your plan is sound. I would offer that “Bobbins” can be an optional item. You can simply splice the loops on the ends of each dogbone to the long center span. Then place the ends of your spreader bars between each loop so they close on the spreader bar ends like a noose.

They will tighten around the pins as you add weight to the hammock. I’ve even use a rubber grommet on the ends of the spreader bars to hold the Amsteel from inadvertently slipping off the pins.

It simplifies the Ariel construction greatly. For me, the splicing was the hardest part of the build.

Let us know what you decide to do...




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[GrizzlyAdams]

I did manage to make the splicing look harder than it is. For neigh on a couple of years I've had at the back of my mind to do a video just on that piece, but hasn't happened yet ....

At the end of the day, whatever approach you take to splicing, what you have to get pretty close to right is the length of the side suspension with respect to pole tip to pole tip. In the approach you describe, that means getting the loops right, which comes down to knowing pretty precisely the impact on the length of side suspension cord from the bury. In the Ariel design that bury comes from a different cord, but the calculation is the same.

Also, whatever approach you take, you get some freedom from the need for precision on the cords that form the suspension triangle. When you finish up bringing the ends together to make the apex you can account for any drift in the hoped-for lengths.

My concern with making a bobbin the endpoints for loops as you have described is that you introduce a pulling force on it that they aren't designed for. With the original Ariel design there is a squeezing force they aren't designed for, but they aren't an integral part of the design... you can just slip the pole tips into the spliced gap. With dog bones connecting at the corner you have to have something at the corner to keep them together.

Am delighted though that you are engaged and thinking about these things. That's what makes bridge hammocks fun for me, the engineering challenges.

[Johnson]

FJRpilot and Grizz, Thanks for your input, and I see your point on the bobbins; I will probably just skip them. I am still pausing a bit while I ponder on whether to do the original 2 suspension lines or the 4. If I do the 4, I will have to estimate very closely the reduction in cord length because of the loop splices and bury, as you pointed out.
I will come to a decision pretty soon, and just start. From past projects I have learned to 'study up' first, only to a degree, but before getting overwhelmed, then just begin. Grizz - thank you for all your design and testing, and sharing the plans with everyone.

[MiteyF]

I made a modified BIC bridge, and did the suspension this way. Essentially 4 separate dog bones. On the tree side I larks head the 2 loops around descender rings.

[Peabody]

Johnson, I’m just finishing a webbing based hammock based on the ariel dimensions. While it’s not tested for longevity like the ariel is, it does have a nice flat lay.
I think the next time I’ll make a hybrid ariel with webbing for the cat curve and amsteel for the suspension triangle. It takes some planning at the connection point of the webbing and amsteel, but I think it could work.

[Just Bill]

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As I mentioned, I cheat. I also have a Ukrainian splicing mistress whom I taught to splice and she is better than I am. So I have her make up batches of 20-30 at a time, load them, and pair them off. On the wall you'll see a batch of luxury bridge splices on the left and a few leftovers from other batches. Bottom right by the wall/sewing machine oil bottle you'll see finished pairs that are matched and ready to feed into various bridge bodies above them. This brute force technique is the most accurate one I know of.

However, I did have to invest a good bit of time in developing the pattern from which to do so. That involved sorting out exactly what size to make each of the three pieces that make up the single continuous sides. Several went in the garbage.

The point being; any splice method you develop will still involve some trial and error. I had zero luck deciphering Grizz's various allowances for locked brummels and burry losses. I think that has more to do with my individual idiosyncrasies than his method. I have never once sat down and calculated a 'perfect' splice. Dog bones are the easiest but that's also a little trial and error. Having started with various versions of dogbone bridges is where I developed the 'oversplice' idea. If I need 4 matching, I splice 5 or 6 and reserve the rest for the next bridge. If your splices are too far off (especially in a simple end bar) then the bridge has a twist in it.

There is also a little stretch in cutting at times, some various tensions on the amsteel itself on the reel from roll to roll. Even subtle differences in exactly how you taper your ends or the amsteel chooses to settle over that tapered end once loaded.

So even with the method you describe... you'll still find some frustration AND introduce additional remedies for it.
With trying to do two center sections and two end sections... you still need to get 2 perfect centers. You'll also have to work out how much loss you'll have when you larkshead them to the bobbin. So you have to develop a new template for that.

I agree the remaining end sections might have more slop in them and could simply be made a bit long to cover losses from the larkshead. For trying that trick... you then need to make a larkshead once you have the center to fix that dogbone so the bridge doesn't roll over. A 1" multibuckle is the best piece of hardware for this, but you're adding hardware... though it does indeed work.

But you've introduced connecting them all up and a less than ideal load bearing device- the bobbin.

You also introduce the possibility of losing any or both or all of the loops in the field as you set it up. Then you've got a long channel with a splice you need to fish back out to set up. (this has happened to me).


Ultimately though you have a problem at the button hole itself. That's a decent bit of bulk you're building there which has to fit within a button hole opening. Which is easy to blow out. Granted, you are the bridge builder and will be sensitive to this weak point... but the first two blow outs I had were in the first big guy and an early production micro bridge. Both testers pulled the suspension too far out of the channels to connect the poles, and then did not manually feed them back in and 'rebalance' the suspension. So they got in and ripped out the suspension through the channels. I had never had the issue as I knew what to do, but it was very clear once handed off that it was a serious flaw.

I believe you have a high probability of repeating the same mistake with what you suggest.

As I advised Peabody in another thread... the Ariel is not an easy build. To an extent simply accepting it helps. Attempting to simplify it dilutes the benefits. It sucks, but as FJRPilot discovered... if you bite the bullet and build it the frustration is soon forgotten once you get around to hanging in it. You'll also have more longevity out of it... so a difficult project isn't repeated every 60-90 nights if it wears early because you dumped too much stress at the corners.


In trying to bring my bridges to production I ran into numerous professional sewing machine operators and even a few hammock vendors who simply could not build these. (even one who couldn't set the bridge up) Including some folks who are considered some of the best. I only share that because I think simply accepting that something is very difficult and sucks to build can make it easier in the end. I can build a sewn channel gathered end in 20 minutes. I can build an end bar bridge in about 2 hours. It takes me close to 8 hours start to finish to build a Lux or a Big Guy. I'm not awesome. I just accept that it sucks and get on with it.

Being a production carpenter I also value labor over materials. Amsteel is relatively cheap. I've spent hours splicing, stretching, picking, resplicing, stretching and repeat trying to get one set perfect. In an hour I can splice up several sets and toss the rejects. Not only do I get better and more accurate by simple dint of repetitive practice, but I also get less frustrated. Yar, my 'hit rate' was perhaps a bit low to start but soon got better. Ultimately though, it's 'cheaper' to simply sit down and blast out several sets and toss a few if needed. $7 of amsteel wasn't worth hour of my time or an ounce of frustration. Cut up a batch, put on a movie, and get them done frustration free. It's a repetitive motion game to learn splicing, not something you can think through or measure your way out of easily.

Having one good clean set to put in the bridge makes the bridge better. Besides all the trouble of splicing there is all the trouble of sewing up the bridge itself. Which is monumentally frustrating to go through all that trouble and then mess it up somehow with the wrong splice being inserted. If you've invested yourself into splicing for hours on end you're more likely to get attached to your one pair. With a pile of them I just select the best pair of many and I'm not tempted to make a less than perfect set work. Just human nature... at some point you'll get burned out and compromise. So I like to avoid the temptation completely.


Only way to dig a hole is one shovel at a time. It sucks, but I find splicing these is the same basic concept. You just have to roll up your sleeves and do it. Eventually the job gets done and you can move on.

As Grizz mentioned; there is a little tolerance. So long as the two center eyes end up more or less in the center of the button holes they will work. Realistically so long as the pole tips end up more or less in the right spot... the exact amount of 'eye' left over on either side doesn't matter too much... so there is a little slop there too if you keep the eye at least 1" wide. After about a dozen nights the amsteel will take a 'set' and form around the pole tips and find it's own way under load. You can't get super sloppy, but while Grizz does call it 'precision' splicing we are not talking micrometers or even millimeters.

By using a carabiner or shackle of some type... the eyes on each end will balance themselves out a little. So if you find yourself down to 1/8" or so then run with it. I used to use a 1/4" with little trouble but things have tightened up over time for me. The beauty of the single clean line and it being your bridge is that you can work with it. Sending them out to others things have to be pretty tight so they don't mess it up. But you'll be careful with your baby and know exactly what needs to be done if you need a little fine tuning in setup.


I try not to discourage innovation or looking to find a better way... but some things are just hard for good reason.

I know for a fact that Grizz can build an easier bridge... but I doubt if he has a better one to offer (for now).
I strongly encourage folks to just build it. There are a few ways to fake your way through it, and when/if it's your first bridge it can be easy to think you really pulled one off since most any bridge is a different experience and a 'win' for those looking to benefit from one. Many of these builds are successful and meet the needs of the person who made them.

I have the luxury of a fleet of bridges in various designs with subtle differences experienced over many years... there are DIY bridges and there is the Ariel. If you're going to put all the time in; just build the best the best way the Professor came up with.

[Peabody]

Bill and Grizz know all this stuff far better than I for sure. They are extremely generous in sharing their knowledge with the rest of the community. One day I’d like to build a true ariel - I’m just not there yet with my fabrication skills.
So depending on where you are with sewing skill, you may want to try a hybrid design with webbing on the cat curve. You would have to slightly modify the corner where the cat curve ends to allow for a place where the amsteel and webbing could connect. (This would also be a great place for spreader bar attachment).
Here’s a pic that bill posted in my earlier thread:
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That’s obviously a bar end design though.

[Just Bill]

I get a little muddled up on who did what where and when...
Somewhere in there Grizz and I ended up an a parallel set of tracks. He was kind enough to share, I kept my mouth shut. (hard to believe).

Point being; preceding the Ariel are several recessed bar designs without precision splicing, single channels, or the final really hard bits.

I got into my micro- the original was simply a very small end bar bridge with extensions. Think of it like a torso length bridge.
I also had a quasi Ariel that preceded the Big Guy as a person and a half bridge for me and my kiddo. I put up someplace.


Both of us 'worked our way' up to these final designs with versions of rolled web end bar bridges with extensions.
In the case of the original micro- I had two piece bodies.
I do recall Grizz building a three piece body bridge with triangle gussets sewn in where the center portion of the body meets the end extensions.
At some point one or both of us were building one piece bodies, with channels added over the dogbone to suspend the ends... and at some point it all got cut out into the Ariel and my original 'Just a Bridge' I briefly and quietly sold a few years ago.



Technically V. Allen produced the first 'big guy' using the three piece body, end bar bridge in the middle style of building-



Tim (Mountain hanger) in the video was one of my original testers as it turns out he serendipitously lives close to where I moved to.

Nobody knows exactly what happened with Vince, but a few of those bridges got made and passed around.

I won't pick on vince- but there are several weak points in the design to overcome.

There was a multi-year process to overcome those flaws in dozens of versions but...

It does work. For those who are intimidated by the Ariel... feel free to press rewind on Grizz's channel.
He might be better able to recommend a specific bridge worth pursuingÂ… but that quasi-recessed bar is an easier build by far and you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Splicing is limited to dogbones. Channels are pretty simple to add. I can think of a way to build it with the Ariel pattern...


I just believe at the moment-

Beginner- Bic/hiker Dad, with the bonus being you can buy a kit and/or pattern.
The spreader bars can be used on any bridge in the future.... so you're just out the cost of materials.

Medium or beginner- VW's People's bridge- for customization and to learn some concepts.

Expert- Ariel

As a middle ground- Grizz has quite a bit of content and multiple builds on his channel. Others do too... but this prevents getting overwhelmed.

The basic evolution is end bar, shaped body, recessed end bars, amsteel in channel suspension.
Other than some of WV's more crazy concept builds... I think that's pretty well the process all of us have followed in searching for cleaner designs.

PS- I know I am plowing through a vast swath of folks who contributed. But trying to keep it simple.
There would be no bridges if it weren't for Jacks... and no Grizz without TeeDee and no this without that on down the line.
But might as well welcome you in the door with the cliff notes version and you can dig up the history on your own.

[Just Bill]

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Here's the other reason I suggest just building one... this is bridge design.
One pattern (third round after 30 days in round one and 60 days in round two) and over $500 of fabric and webbing cut up for this batch to create a matrix of various fabric and webbing combinations to test the properties of each particular one. Some are destined to fail, some might be winners... all could work at first and then fail disastrously in a few months. Out of these 10 combos one or two may make it... the rest will go in the garbage.

It takes some serious optimism to make bridges from scratch... not to mention cash.

Though first off the line this round is encouraging.
7.25 ounces for body, dogbones and RL, 12.75 ounces with spreader bars.

And an endbar bridge that inverts and allows a 230 pound feller to belly sleep.
It's not a rolled webbing edge... but something new.
So provided it holds up even an old dog can indeed be taught new tricks.

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