A note on ROBIC...

[ripstopbytheroll]

When anyone asks what I do, I tell them I own a business called Ripstop by the Roll. Before the blank stare can set in, I follow that up by saying that we're kinda like a Home Depot for people who want to sew up their own Outdoor Gear - tents, tarps, hammocks... you name it.

They inevitably ask how we ever got into something like that, and then I tell them because we couldn't find the right materials for the gear we were making ourselves. It was either use something that wasn't quite right, or put in the time (and money, don't forget the money) to innovate and build the right material for the job.

I mention that story because in our five years, the mission hasn't changed. We serve two purposes at RBTR - outfitting the DIYer and fueling vendors with fabrics, materials, and capabilities that push the limit and ultimately make your gear better. We don't make stuff, we help others make stuff better.

Are we perfect? Hell no. But we are darn proud of what we do and very thankful for how fortunate we've been to do it.

We know that many of you LOVE the ROBIC Hybrid fabrics, especially the 1.2 and 1.7 oz, for their unique attributes of width, feel, durability, strength, and stretch. When it comes to pushing the envelope on fabrics and materials, the ROBIC line is one we've been extremely proud to bring you.

With that being said, the reason for this post is that it's become necessary to put a temporary HOLD on the sales of our ROBIC fabrics.

As I stated previously in this rather odd post back in August, we are currently working hand in hand with the ROBIC yarn manufacturer Hyosung as partners to ensure all the yarn used in our ROBIC fabrics is approved by Hyosung to hold the ROBIC brand name. We respect the science, time, and effort that Hyosung put into creating their ROBIC yarn, so we want to always make sure we're using ROBIC approved yarn to weave our fabrics. We've been working with Hyosung on fixing this issue since it was first discovered about two months ago.

This halt of sales is self-imposed by us (RBTR) and NOT at the request of Hyosung. Rather, the reason for the halt of sales is mainly to allow time to fully assess some new knowledge regarding the involvement of a third party competitor. Based on what we've been able to gather, it's our opinion that this competitor is now attempting to exploit an otherwise straightforward issue between licensee (RBTR) and licensor (Hyosung) for personal profit. This third party has not contacted us directly on the matter, else we would have and still would happily engage with them on the topic. Given this new involvement and the nature of the issue, we feel it's now best to pause the ROBIC sales, define facts, then continue on.

For clarity's sake, this is a brand name issue only and in no way affects the quality/performance of the ROBIC fabrics we offer or you currently hang in. Once the naming issue is resolved, one of two things will happen:

1) We will continue selling ROBIC brand fabrics exactly as we are now.

2) We will move some of the ROBIC brand fabrics to our high-end MTN series line (at least for a bit).

Regardless of which one it winds up being, the hammock fabrics (1.2 oz and 1.7 oz Hybrid) will be the exact same ones you've come to know, love, and give 59/60 five star reviews (60/60 if you count the customer who confused meters and yards).

As I'm typing this I'm realizing how weird and convoluted this might sound, but I just felt it was time to speak out and take action. To that end, I'm more than happy to answer any questions that you may have here.

I do apologize for the temporary inconvenience and hope to have a quick resolution to this mess. As always, our entire team appreciates your support! We will update this thread as soon as possible .

THANK YOU

[Crazytown3]

Thanks Kyle, and thanks to your team for everything you do to help support us folks in the DIY community. Here's hoping for a quick resolution to this issue, and keep on truckin'!

[Just Bill]

Best of luck to a quick and cheap resolution.

Unfortunately the mark of any decent business is having some dishonest asshat come after the money you've made honestly.

[Gresh]

Straightforward practices, clarity, and public transparency are all cornerstones of a successful business in a tight-knit community. This sort of thing is why RBTR will always be my go-to.

[MAD777]

Posts like this just increases my confidence to buy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[PapaSmurf]

Posts like this just increases my confidence to buy.

Agreed. I really appreciate Kyle and the whole RBTR crew for their friendly and transparent approach to business.

For quality, service and innovation, I think the obvious choice is https://ripstopbytheroll.com/

[Rex Clifton]

When anyone asks what I do, I tell them I own a business called Ripstop by the Roll. Before the blank stare can set in, I follow that up by saying that we're kinda like a Home Depot for people who want to sew up their own Outdoor Gear - tents, tarps, hammocks... you name it.

They inevitably ask how we ever got into something like that, and then I tell them because we couldn't find the right materials for the gear we were making ourselves. It was either use something that wasn't quite right, or put in the time (and money, don't forget the money) to innovate and build the right material for the job.

I mention that story because in our five years, the mission hasn't changed. We serve two purposes at RBTR - outfitting the DIYer and fueling vendors with fabrics, materials, and capabilities that push the limit and ultimately make your gear better. We don't make stuff, we help others make stuff better.

Are we perfect? Hell no. But we are darn proud of what we do and very thankful for how fortunate we've been to do it.

We know that many of you LOVE the ROBIC Hybrid fabrics, especially the 1.2 and 1.7 oz, for their unique attributes of width, feel, durability, strength, and stretch. When it comes to pushing the envelope on fabrics and materials, the ROBIC line is one we've been extremely proud to bring you.

With that being said, the reason for this post is that it's become necessary to put a temporary HOLD on the sales of our ROBIC fabrics.

As I stated previously in this rather odd post back in August, we are currently working hand in hand with the ROBIC yarn manufacturer Hyosung as partners to ensure all the yarn used in our ROBIC fabrics is approved by Hyosung to hold the ROBIC brand name. We respect the science, time, and effort that Hyosung put into creating their ROBIC yarn, so we want to always make sure we're using ROBIC approved yarn to weave our fabrics. We've been working with Hyosung on fixing this issue since it was first discovered about two months ago.

This halt of sales is self-imposed by us (RBTR) and NOT at the request of Hyosung. Rather, the reason for the halt of sales is mainly to allow time to fully assess some new knowledge regarding the involvement of a third party competitor. Based on what we've been able to gather, it's our opinion that this competitor is now attempting to exploit an otherwise straightforward issue between licensee (RBTR) and licensor (Hyosung) for personal profit. This third party has not contacted us directly on the matter, else we would have and still would happily engage with them on the topic. Given this new involvement and the nature of the issue, we feel it's now best to pause the ROBIC sales, define facts, then continue on.

For clarity's sake, this is a brand name issue only and in no way affects the quality/performance of the ROBIC fabrics we offer or you currently hang in. Once the naming issue is resolved, one of two things will happen:

1) We will continue selling ROBIC brand fabrics exactly as we are now.

2) We will move some of the ROBIC brand fabrics to our high-end MTN series line (at least for a bit).

Regardless of which one it winds up being, the hammock fabrics (1.2 oz and 1.7 oz Hybrid) will be the exact same ones you've come to know, love, and give 59/60 five star reviews (60/60 if you count the customer who confused meters and yards).

As I'm typing this I'm realizing how weird and convoluted this might sound, but I just felt it was time to speak out and take action. To that end, I'm more than happy to answer any questions that you may have here.

I do apologize for the temporary inconvenience and hope to have a quick resolution to this mess. As always, our entire team appreciates your support! We will update this thread as soon as possible .

THANK YOU

Is it a quality issue? I read somewhere that Enlightened Equipment got a bad roll of Robic 7D and it caused some havoc. It seems half the roll was bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[ripstopbytheroll]

Is it a quality issue? I read somewhere that Enlightened Equipment got a bad roll of Robic 7D and it caused some havoc. It seems half the roll was bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

No it's not a quality issue at all. This is strictly branding. We are working with Hyosung, the manufacturer of the ROBIC yarn and owner of the ROBIC trademark brand, to update our supply chain so that all the yarn used is approved for the ROBIC branding.

[Just Bill]

Is it a quality issue? I read somewhere that Enlightened Equipment got a bad roll of Robic 7D and it caused some havoc. It seems half the roll was bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm a Primaloft Gold registered Manufacturer. In order to use that product I needed to register, demonstrate some basic knowledge and agree to abide by certain terms. Products I produce must contain certain branding, labels, and hang tags depending on the product. I'm restricted in how I use or market that product. Point being... using branded material comes with restrictions. These folks take the brand seriously and sometimes aggressively. I work with Kyle, Dutch, and other suppliers... not married to anyone here. I like to use the best stuff I can and each supplier has their specialties. Speaking objectively; running into a branding issue rings true to me.

Here's a common sense example: Do you think anyone in the cottage world wanted to deal with 'rebranding' Cuben Fiber into Dyneema Composite Fabric? Hell no. It's still a pain in the neck and customers are very confused when they finally go to buy that expensive cuben product they've been dreaming about and it looks like it has been replaced by this DCF stuff.

Why? ... A company got bought out by a name brand who supplied the "fiber" part of cuben fiber and wanted that brand name highlighted.
So here's a simple fact; you wanted any more cuben... then you got on board with Dyneema Composite Fabric branding or you're SOL. Overnight and virtually instantly nearly every website and vendor's literature changed. Even outdoor writers or gear reviewers bent to the pressure and wrote articles and news blurbs explaining the change.

All I read above is that RBTR is dealing with a large corporation and working on getting in line. That's not any top secret info, just real life. The outdoors is becoming a big biz and the need to protect or expand market presence is a fact of life in any industry.

On the plus side... it is also a bit of a partnership and it's not all bad. Working with a big boy brand name does allow you some access to their R&D, knowledge, testing, and even some enthusiastic support. But the bigger the place the slower it moves so it's always a balancing act of keeping everyone comfortable. Add in third party manufacturers, subcontractors, or even the general public and things get complicated.



None of this has to do with the issue at hand- but since you mentioned Tim and quality:




I'm sure others know better than I do the exact number, but I believe there are well under a dozen mills in the world that can make fabric in extremely light weights. (may only actually be one or two)
As the thread used gets lighter and lighter... the tolerances on the machine get smaller and smaller. If even a single thread miss-feeds, breaks or slips it creates an issue.
Adding different ripstop grid patterns further complicates things. Watching one of these mills work... it's easy to imagine how difficult 7d yarn would be to work with.

For rough reference:
A strand of human hair is about 20d.
Ultra sheer (see through/barely there) panty hose is 15d.
A single filament of silk is roughly 1d.

Tim at EE struggled for years to find a mill that could make 7d shells, until recently they didn't actually exist.
My understanding is that many full batches were tossed and there can always be issues even if you find a place that will attempt to make them.
The reason that many MYOG folks are able to find abundant 'seconds' is that making very light material is hard and comes with a fairly high reject rate.
It's also the reason one could find a simple 1.9/70d nylon for a dollar a yard, while going 1/10th the weight to a 7d costs you 10 times the price.

I'm not sure there is a mill that has this nailed as even Patagonia gets a fair amount of rejects and tends to shy away from true 7d material with 10d or 15d being more common at their volume.
Montbell seems to be one of the larger consumers of SUL shell fabrics, though doing primarily apparel they can 'work around' or deal with mill errors more readily. I don't know for sure, but I have been told they have an ownership stake in a mill.

On top of actually making the stuff... it is then often 'finished' in one or several manners.
Calendared is the most common, DWR is common too.
A little too much heat or pressure on the calendaring and you just took your precious batch of SUL fabric and ruined it.
Gob up the DWR coating and you ruin the fabric.




The overall point being-
Be it Tim at Enlightened, Kyle, or Dutch.... or others.
The materials being used are state of the art in the cottage industry. It's actually pretty shocking. I used to work at The North Face years ago. Patagonia wasn't much different. The big boys cut extremely exclusive deals to produce their bleeding edge materials technology. Even a medium sized company only had access to second or third tier materials. So if you wanted the best your options were very limited. Even if you had access to fabrics you had to buy pallet or even container loads of it to attempt to produce a new product from it. I recall cutting up and reworking these guys products as that was literally the only way to get access to those materials. Can you imagine cutting up a $600 tent just so you could build a lighter bivy sack?

You can now buy some of the best materials on the planet 'off the shelf' from Kyle or Dutch. Sometimes you can even buy the best. You can even buy some things that these folks are risking their money to develop simply so they can sell it to you. They are not spending money so they can stock the shelves of REI with millions of dollars of their cutting edge exclusive product... just selling it to you directly.
Tim is likely still the same dude he was a decade ago at backpacking light... tinkering, searching and risking his money to build something lighter, better, cooler.

While there is a ton of innovation being poured into cottage gear; most of it wouldn't be possible without these materials.
Five years ago... someone like Tim was doing backflips and design gymnastics to produce a 16 ounce quilt... now you can pull materials off the shelf from Dutch or Kyle and replicate that feat at home.
Your average cottage vendor top quilt is even with what was barely possible by the best in the world less than a decade ago. An econ or budget quilt from a vendor here is on par with the $500 bags sold by the big boys a few years ago.

The bridges I can build were delicate near death explosions only suitable for risky adventure racing or FKT trips five years ago... now I get bomber ultralight materials from these guys and get to push even further. Or better yet- make them well enough that your average camper can use them easily and safely.

There are innovations everywhere for sure... But for the most part these folks are still 'nobodies' in the big corporate world and are way out on the bleeding edge of what's possible. There is no big budget R&D department or other divisions in the company to support risk. You risk as much as these folks pushing things and there will be some issues. Material failures, rejects, bad batches, or getting tripped up by a bigger corporation who doesn't want to risk their name on your innovations or simply wants to step on your toes because they can.

It's easy to play it safe... much harder to venture out on the edge.

I'm not on anyone's team. So this isn't a ra-ra this guy is great and I met him at a hang post.
Fer me; I respect innovation and having the balls to try things.
The guts to put your own money on the line and the integrity to stand up and say so if you stumble.

I'm also willing to accept a bit of risk when I join in.
I know where I can go if I want iron clad guarantees, ridiculous warranties, or safe gear.
Where to go for marketing BS or a refund of the money I paid when I paid double the value in the first place to buy that insurance policy.

I'm not trying to single anyone out- more make a general statement.
Guess I'm a little irked it appears someone put a fake account together at this site to play dirty against a vendor who takes some risks.
I'd rather not see any rumors start up or reputations damaged.

If you aren't screwing up, you're not trying. Guess we are getting a bit spoiled. It's easy to forget exactly how far things have been pushed in the last few years. How these vendors pushing each other has led to very large leaps in MYOG/DIY as well as allowing talented folks to produce gear for all of us to use that is occasionally far beyond what even the best and biggest companies in the world currently produce.

If you find yourself playing teams; might be worth considering that tiny little hammock forums is a drop in the outdoor industry bucket. Not even big enough to count as a team.
But as a whole; From fabrics, roll goods, hardware, and eventually products built from them some of the most innovative things in the entire outdoor industry are happening here.

Be proud of all these companies and respectful of what it is they actually do.

[Tyroler Holzhacker]

I'm a Primaloft Gold registered Manufacturer. In order to use that product I needed to register, demonstrate some basic knowledge and agree to abide by certain terms. Products I produce must contain certain branding, labels, and hang tags depending on the product. I'm restricted in how I use or market that product. Point being... using branded material comes with restrictions. These folks take the brand seriously and sometimes aggressively. I work with Kyle, Dutch, and other suppliers... not married to anyone here. I like to use the best stuff I can and each supplier has their specialties. Speaking objectively; running into a branding issue rings true to me.

Here's a common sense example: Do you think anyone in the cottage world wanted to deal with 'rebranding' Cuben Fiber into Dyneema Composite Fabric? Hell no. It's still a pain in the neck and customers are very confused when they finally go to buy that expensive cuben product they've been dreaming about and it looks like it has been replaced by this DCF stuff.

Why? ... A company got bought out by a name brand who supplied the "fiber" part of cuben fiber and wanted that brand name highlighted.
So here's a simple fact; you wanted any more cuben... then you got on board with Dyneema Composite Fabric branding or you're SOL. Overnight and virtually instantly nearly every website and vendor's literature changed. Even outdoor writers or gear reviewers bent to the pressure and wrote articles and news blurbs explaining the change.

All I read above is that RBTR is dealing with a large corporation and working on getting in line. That's not any top secret info, just real life. The outdoors is becoming a big biz and the need to protect or expand market presence is a fact of life in any industry.

On the plus side... it is also a bit of a partnership and it's not all bad. Working with a big boy brand name does allow you some access to their R&D, knowledge, testing, and even some enthusiastic support. But the bigger the place the slower it moves so it's always a balancing act of keeping everyone comfortable. Add in third party manufacturers, subcontractors, or even the general public and things get complicated.



None of this has to do with the issue at hand- but since you mentioned Tim and quality:




I'm sure others know better than I do the exact number, but I believe there are well under a dozen mills in the world that can make fabric in extremely light weights. (may only actually be one or two)
As the thread used gets lighter and lighter... the tolerances on the machine get smaller and smaller. If even a single thread miss-feeds, breaks or slips it creates an issue.
Adding different ripstop grid patterns further complicates things. Watching one of these mills work... it's easy to imagine how difficult 7d yarn would be to work with.

For rough reference:
A strand of human hair is about 20d.
Ultra sheer (see through/barely there) panty hose is 15d.
A single filament of silk is roughly 1d.

Tim at EE struggled for years to find a mill that could make 7d shells, until recently they didn't actually exist.
My understanding is that many full batches were tossed and there can always be issues even if you find a place that will attempt to make them.
The reason that many MYOG folks are able to find abundant 'seconds' is that making very light material is hard and comes with a fairly high reject rate.
It's also the reason one could find a simple 1.9/70d nylon for a dollar a yard, while going 1/10th the weight to a 7d costs you 10 times the price.

I'm not sure there is a mill that has this nailed as even Patagonia gets a fair amount of rejects and tends to shy away from true 7d material with 10d or 15d being more common at their volume.
Montbell seems to be one of the larger consumers of SUL shell fabrics, though doing primarily apparel they can 'work around' or deal with mill errors more readily. I don't know for sure, but I have been told they have an ownership stake in a mill.

On top of actually making the stuff... it is then often 'finished' in one or several manners.
Calendared is the most common, DWR is common too.
A little too much heat or pressure on the calendaring and you just took your precious batch of SUL fabric and ruined it.
Gob up the DWR coating and you ruin the fabric.




The overall point being-
Be it Tim at Enlightened, Kyle, or Dutch.... or others.
The materials being used are state of the art in the cottage industry. It's actually pretty shocking. I used to work at The North Face years ago. Patagonia wasn't much different. The big boys cut extremely exclusive deals to produce their bleeding edge materials technology. Even a medium sized company only had access to second or third tier materials. So if you wanted the best your options were very limited. Even if you had access to fabrics you had to buy pallet or even container loads of it to attempt to produce a new product from it. I recall cutting up and reworking these guys products as that was literally the only way to get access to those materials. Can you imagine cutting up a $600 tent just so you could build a lighter bivy sack?

You can now buy some of the best materials on the planet 'off the shelf' from Kyle or Dutch. Sometimes you can even buy the best. You can even buy some things that these folks are risking their money to develop simply so they can sell it to you. They are not spending money so they can stock the shelves of REI with millions of dollars of their cutting edge exclusive product... just selling it to you directly.
Tim is likely still the same dude he was a decade ago at backpacking light... tinkering, searching and risking his money to build something lighter, better, cooler.

While there is a ton of innovation being poured into cottage gear; most of it wouldn't be possible without these materials.
Five years ago... someone like Tim was doing backflips and design gymnastics to produce a 16 ounce quilt... now you can pull materials off the shelf from Dutch or Kyle and replicate that feat at home.
Your average cottage vendor top quilt is even with what was barely possible by the best in the world less than a decade ago. An econ or budget quilt from a vendor here is on par with the $500 bags sold by the big boys a few years ago.

The bridges I can build were delicate near death explosions only suitable for risky adventure racing or FKT trips five years ago... now I get bomber ultralight materials from these guys and get to push even further. Or better yet- make them well enough that your average camper can use them easily and safely.

There are innovations everywhere for sure... But for the most part these folks are still 'nobodies' in the big corporate world and are way out on the bleeding edge of what's possible. There is no big budget R&D department or other divisions in the company to support risk. You risk as much as these folks pushing things and there will be some issues. Material failures, rejects, bad batches, or getting tripped up by a bigger corporation who doesn't want to risk their name on your innovations or simply wants to step on your toes because they can.

It's easy to play it safe... much harder to venture out on the edge.

I'm not on anyone's team. So this isn't a ra-ra this guy is great and I met him at a hang post.
Fer me; I respect innovation and having the balls to try things.
The guts to put your own money on the line and the integrity to stand up and say so if you stumble.

I'm also willing to accept a bit of risk when I join in.
I know where I can go if I want iron clad guarantees, ridiculous warranties, or safe gear.
Where to go for marketing BS or a refund of the money I paid when I paid double the value in the first place to buy that insurance policy.

I'm not trying to single anyone out- more make a general statement.
Guess I'm a little irked it appears someone put a fake account together at this site to play dirty against a vendor who takes some risks.
I'd rather not see any rumors start up or reputations damaged.

If you aren't screwing up, you're not trying. Guess we are getting a bit spoiled. It's easy to forget exactly how far things have been pushed in the last few years. How these vendors pushing each other has led to very large leaps in MYOG/DIY as well as allowing talented folks to produce gear for all of us to use that is occasionally far beyond what even the best and biggest companies in the world currently produce.

If you find yourself playing teams; might be worth considering that tiny little hammock forums is a drop in the outdoor industry bucket. Not even big enough to count as a team.
But as a whole; From fabrics, roll goods, hardware, and eventually products built from them some of the most innovative things in the entire outdoor industry are happening here.

Be proud of all these companies and respectful of what it is they actually do.

Right on Bill...Very well said. HF vendors are the best and better than anything coming out of the REIs of the world. Innovations in the hammock world are happening here with our HF vendors and faster than anywhere else.